Classic or hit song!
- Thread starter LDB
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warzone (nov 5-9) signup begins in...
with todays attention span...making a classic is damn near impossible IMO...sad to say but the last real "classic" made was Nellys "its gettin hot in hurr" as far as rap is concerned...not the best song by far...but still is a classic in my book.
This is ILLMUZIK so lets get it str8, we're talking about hip hop here. What u stated there refers to Rock N Roll.....ain't no hip hop artist going to be doing this when they're 70! Few do it in there late thirty's and into your 40's you had better be behind the scene. A lot of Rock dudes didn't get in the game until they were 30. Hip hop has always been a "young mans" game....especially if you're in front of the mic or the camera. I'm not saying there aren't older hip hop catz in the game. They are plenty....they just produce, engineer, have positions in the labels etc etc. Let's face fact....not even a "golden era" hip hop act will be touring when they're the age of say...."The Rolling Stones"!
So if you're trying to make hit records that will bring you financial gain you don't have heart? What does that one members sig line say "What kind of chittlins is that"? Forreal!
And damn....you don't have integrity if you want hit records and money......whoa!
I strongly disagree with that statement when it comes to hip hop. As far as it being "unforgettable" it's only that for the ones who lived that era. Not many if any of todays generation listen to 90's hip hop. U remember at one of the recent award shows when todays hip hop gen had to be thoroughly rehearsed just to do a verse of two from the classics?.....Remember the first making the band when they didn't even know Biggies shit and they wanted to be signed to Bad Boy........need I type more?
A lot of the things you guys are saying "read well" and are very "politically" correct when it comes to hip hop. I'll give u that....lol
Spittin bars on stage at the age of 70 aint a good look to most folk...but what if you still nice when you turn 70...lol...and even the Rolling Stones look weird on stage wit they old ass...but hey they gettin paid lovely for what they do still. I feel if the hip hop respected its elders more...they would get the same love the Rolling Stones get....not to get to far off topic I hope.
You're not off topic at all homie.......I don't know if it's about respect though....it's just not what we do in the genre I think. Most of us just get out he way when it's time and let the younger gen get it in. We try not to practice what our "elders" did I think. You know...like the black politicians in Congress and the Senate who look and act way past retirement age. The Martin Luther King age cats who think we can't take up and do what they did so they hang around til death. That shit's never been cool to me! I believe it stop'd being about the cause and starting being about power...but that in fact is another topic!
shadeed
Go Digital or Go Home
ill o.g.
Your opinion is definitely accurate if we're discussing the viewpoint of hip hop in maybe the mid 90s up to the early 2000s. Today in 2009, age is less of a factor in hip hop than ever before and I'll explain why.
Hip Hop has always traditionally been a young man's game but the advances in music technology/file sharing etc was probably the best thing to happen to artists from the mid-90s on back to the Golden Era. Why? 10 years ago, if I wanted to find Digable Planets' 1st album, I would have to go on a treasure hunt just to locate it, now I can have their entire catalog at the push of a button.
What people will soon realize is that the main benefit of the "Ringtone Era" of disposable hip-hop music is that it created an increased demand for "Real Hip-Hop". Camps like Def Jux, Duckdown, Hiero, The Roots Crew will be able to record and tour for as long as they choose
to.
"A lot of Rock dudes didn't get in the game until they were 30"
Name 10 prominent 'rock dudes' who joined their first band or picked up their first axe or drumsticks after 30 years old. I'll wait lol.
There's plenty of MCs who are touring now or recently have released albums . Beastie Boys (before cancer news), Slick Rick, Dougie Fresh, Public Enemy, Guru (in his 40's), Grandmaster Flash (alone) and w/ Furious Five, Fat Boys are back in the studio, Ice-T (50 years old), DJ Premier, Sadat X, KRS-ONE just signed a new deal, Grand Puba, MC Lyte, Ice Cube the list goes on and on.
Hip-hop as a genre of music is fairly young, so its not that's "old people don't have a place", the culture is just learning to accept guys with longer tenure in the game to keep putting out material.
I wasn't referring to them starting in music...I was referring to them actually having any kind of success that mattered. More than a few were garage band members along time before they really got on. Meaning they had way more time than the average hip hop group to feel there way around. You got that reality show Bret rock dude right now parading around like he's 20 and he's gotta be late 30's or better.
The few groups that you named touring at a late age in hip hop are too few! PE is not touring on a regular basis...they did it for a minute. Hell on of my good friends is with Griff every weekend in Atlanta so I know for sure he's not out there. The others you named might have a member or two out there doing a little something. It's definitely not on the level that the Rock classics do it. One of the Fat boyz is no longer among the living. Slick recently got himself out of all the trouble he was in.
We can go back an forth but it's for not. There are just not enough doing it to prove your point imo. I don't see Pete and CL ever getting back together to do it. Heavy D is doing a style of Reggae/RnB right now I think. Wu can't even stay together long enough to get a descent tour in. Dougie's out there, Biz is djing. Bottom line there are just too few to count or keep up with....that's all I'm saying!
p.s I caught Shan at the Apache (which only holds a hundred peeps at best....and no it wasn't filled to capacity) a few months back with KRS......Shan was terrible! Trying to do new shit instead of his classics....
there r peeps still doin it into their thirties.. alot of them .. 50 cent, fabolous, jayz, redman, eminem, methodman, ghost rza,and rae (the other wu members cant really HEADLINE i will admit), the whole slaughterhouse, dead prez, lox (jada and styles are 34), rick ross, the whole BCC is way into their thirties, KRS. Jim jones, camron, will - i am is 34, ... really most the biggest highest selling names in hip hop right now are 30 + or just getting there (flo-rida i think is over 30 too, akon as well) .. as far as reaching iconic rock-star status.. NO hip hop act regardless of age has really gotten that big. I mean i think about HUGE hip hop tours like the UP IN SMOKE tour or the Puffy and the family tours, back in the day, and they had whole rosters of A- list rappers at the time and still couldnt get numbers like the rolling stones and they are just one band. the closest thing we have to iconic right now (can sell out a huge venue wit da quickness) is jay-z and guess what, he's old! so i fail to see how its a young mans game, although there is definitely an advantage to being young. and the other thing you have to consider is guys like PE can draw HUGE crowds overseas. These young dudes arent really appreciated as much overseas like dat. If jay-z can headline whatever that show was in scotland or whatever thats a big deal. I think hip hop acts can def still tour. Shan sucks lol. i saw him a few years ago @ the park across from QB projects he was terrible. he was tryn doing crunk music and shit it was wack. thats not because of his age why hes wack. hes just wack. im sure jay could make music and sellout shows till he's in a wheelchair. Im sure PE could tour. flavs too busy with his 100 kids and making reality shows and im sure chuck d doesnt want to even fuck with flav like that anymore. there shitloads of people that would pay to see PE. worldwide.
but to answer the question... classic....... most def.
but to answer the question... classic....... most def.
shadeed
Go Digital or Go Home
ill o.g.
Bret Michaels is probably in his 40s now - glad he's able to make a 2nd career for himself, didn't see that one coming. Hip hop is definitely not touring at the level of rock classic artists, that wasn't my point. You mentioned that hip-hop is a young man's game and I pointed out that times have changed and its a lot of artists in their 30s and 40s that are still actively releasing music and touring.
We do agree on the fact that MC Shan in his present form sucks. Don't know why he went in that direction, almost as bad as U-GOD's crunk track that he put out.
Kontents
I like Gearslutz
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 5
Yea, but my point is about the "now" like...if I was to produce a track would it be a cash cow or a track that goes down in history.
I completely see your point of view on how hip hop is viewed by the masses, but if I was to decided right now at this second I would without hesitation go for a classic track. The fact of hits being something that can sound "good" for the current trends could in the long run destroy the very image of what hip hop is and how it came to be. If I make a classic it represents what I feel in music, how music has touched my life and how it can affect anyone who really pays attention to it. So the benifits from a classic track vs. a HIT are very big in my eyes.
Off topic.... " Excellent thread LDB" its been awhile since we have had good discussion on the forum and I appreciate it.
Well I think what people have confused is what you put into a classic and what you put into a hit...
You can put your heart into EITHER ONE!! CLASSIC OR NOT. You don't think one hit wonders put their heart and soul into their music? I'm not saying all of them did....but it seems as if when people say that when you create a "hit" record that you're just doing it for the money....and the classic you're doing it for the love...
Come on people..you're doing it for the money whether or not you're producing a classic or hit...the ONLY difference IN MY OPINION is when you get paid......
And "hits" can become "classics" over time... Very very few albums become instant classics. You can't have a classic album without AT LEAST ONE HIT...I'm sorry...that's just how I view them. Nas' last album was not a classic...last classic Nas' album was It was written...why? because it had at least ONE HIT....the others didn't have hits....and neither one of them were classics, either...So YOU GOTTA MAKE HITS TO MAKE IT A CLASSIC!#$!@$@%@
Michael Jackson's Thriller...had numerous HITS..it became a CLASSIC...
I'm ridin with LDB on this one....Gotta have the Hits.....
My thoughts as I fight through this beat block...fucking deadlines be killin me.
shortt knowtice
Beatmaker
ill o.g.
Classic. Whether or not its a "Hit" means nothing to me. Theres a lot of classic hip hop that I think all of us would agree is classic but the average person may not even know the album or song. I'd rather be known and appreciated forever to few than known and liked for a time period. I think with a classic album people know who produced it....For a hit song, people know who sang/wrote it.
You really have to factor in the state of the industry these days at the same time with a question like this tho, so I can fully see how many advocates of "Classic" over "Hit" are rationalizing their answers. These days especially there are just too many bubblegum commodified albums that become so called "hits"....but I agree with a lot of your rationale at the same time in regards to having a hit before its a classic fasho.
manguino
Pressure Makes Diamonds
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 7
i don't think it's possible to TRY and make a classic. maybe in a person's head they're making a classic but they don't have control how people 10-20 years from now are going to see their music.
i think what we're getting at is artistic integrity versus making a sure hit song?
i think what we're getting at is artistic integrity versus making a sure hit song?
I do factor in the state of the industry these days......And I know it's next to impossible to put out what hip hop heads deem as "classic". And people are making it seem as if it is impossible....It's damn near it but it's not impossible......Don't get me wrong people, I would LOVE to be part of a classic record....But I'd take hits all day...
Hits are going to keep you doing music for a living....the ability to make hits will keep you relevant in the game for a longer time......with a classic, your music will live a lot longer...but with ONE age group..and that age group will get older and your album will be a classic...but these youngins won't know/understand it...I don't see any teenagers copping a Marvin Gaye album......or a James Brown album......
Making constant hits will make you a classic producer/artist...
Shit...the rolling stones may not be the same Rolling Stones in the 60s-70s...but if they did a show in MSG, they'd sell it out in minutes....You can't compare rock music to hip-hop....rock bands have cult-like followings - more so than hip-hop acts.....hip-hop is a lot more trendy than rock music.
But don't think for one second that if I make some bubblegum hip-pop track that I won't put my all into it........but you know with the south being where it's at in the state of the game, it's safe to say these dudes out here have gone IN on shit for years while in the shadow of hip-hop in the east...They've hustled their asses off to get where they're at...there wasn't no Def Jam out here in Orlando...These dudes out here hustled a lot harder to get where they're at in my opinion than dudes in major markets (LA, NYC, etc.).
As corny as these new "s-hits" sounds, these people put a lot of work and effort to make these songs appealing in a market which is seemingly oversaturated with similar acts. People are used to having talent dictate success, the south changed that where talent can only now take you so far...
If it was one big hit....or one classic album... all the praise in the world isnt' going to pay my bills...the hit will...and depending on the hit..if it's one of those hits that become "classic", I'd be seeing the residuals for years to come...
Artists would come to you for the hits...labels will sign you for the hits....because hits generate more revenue...
Fuck it...I'll try to make that paper.... Sue me..
Man I love convos like this..
Another valid point.
MagnaOpera
Comes Equipped...
ill o.g.
tru dat you can really seperate the boys from the men if you read people's answers to this question...
I agree with Sucio, most times neither a hit nor a classic is intentional from the outset.
Theres commercial music made for mass appeal, thats the nearest to trying to get an intentional hit I can think of, most hits/classics just happen because they go down so well, to the complete surprise of the artists.
Theres commercial music made for mass appeal, thats the nearest to trying to get an intentional hit I can think of, most hits/classics just happen because they go down so well, to the complete surprise of the artists.
Exactly 2Good!
On the real...I don't know why people can't just state there opinions or express there point of view without throwing in words like "integrity" and "heart" in the convo. Words like that always put a NEGATIVE spin on these convo's. You can't judge a mans heart or integrity through the music you hear them make. You have to know that person PERSONALLY to even go there.
This is a good topic (glad I thought of it...lol) I'm chillin in Jacksonville Fla right now enjoying the convo on the ole laptop!
I'm in agreement with who ever said "you can't produce a classic", Classics just evolve into classics thru no power of the producer or artist. The right segment of the hip hop population has to be feeling you at the time in order to get in the classics race. There have been a few songs in the present generation that will probably be considered by them to be classics one day. What's considered a classic is totally defined by listener of that era.
I also agree that the age thing is and has changed some what. 30 seems to be the new 20.....I think the biggest reason for that is the really young catz bring in too much baggage. Most are already in serious trouble with the law before there careers even get started and should they catch any buzz what so ever it seems that they get in even more trouble by letting there ego's get the best of them!
On the real...I don't know why people can't just state there opinions or express there point of view without throwing in words like "integrity" and "heart" in the convo. Words like that always put a NEGATIVE spin on these convo's. You can't judge a mans heart or integrity through the music you hear them make. You have to know that person PERSONALLY to even go there.
This is a good topic (glad I thought of it...lol) I'm chillin in Jacksonville Fla right now enjoying the convo on the ole laptop!
I'm in agreement with who ever said "you can't produce a classic", Classics just evolve into classics thru no power of the producer or artist. The right segment of the hip hop population has to be feeling you at the time in order to get in the classics race. There have been a few songs in the present generation that will probably be considered by them to be classics one day. What's considered a classic is totally defined by listener of that era.
I also agree that the age thing is and has changed some what. 30 seems to be the new 20.....I think the biggest reason for that is the really young catz bring in too much baggage. Most are already in serious trouble with the law before there careers even get started and should they catch any buzz what so ever it seems that they get in even more trouble by letting there ego's get the best of them!