Where Do You Draw The Line?

[Ozmosis]

Im actually lost on what this topic is about now lol.. Back on Topic, There soo much out these days its all about personal preference. If your heart is set on expensive pieces of gear, get it on credit and make small payments (if credit is an option for you). Like my pops tells me "everyone spends their money on something."

 

[Formant024]

lol Ok, I reread it. And agreed. But to think pro-Trance cant be produced at home isnt correct. I know the mixing in trance famously needs more attention but there are tools that compensate. Analysers, and some hardwares. etc, you still must know what you're doing.

Have you seen tiesto or van buren's studio ?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoW-fbFAsIQ"]Mirage - In the studio with Armin van Buuren - YouTube[/ame]

gah..doesnt even have an avocet lol

its really not all that if you consider that a lot of synths are one trick ponies. Ive seen how armin van buren upgraded to his current studio, he didnt go to a much bigger room but had a company shape the room for him and had it fully treated. Another custom monitor designer made a full range farfield build into the wall. Same 2 primaries that concern bedroom techies aswell, though i understand not wanting to reconstruct a room lol but its not expensive to do. Okay, you might think hmm d/a is probably a huge investment for armin but i think its s/pdif or aes which is all the same often, for speakers with analoge inputs the d/a plays a bigger role in your budget, afaik both are suitable. And if you do need a lot of i/o, those alpha link's are up to par for pro trance stuff, bang for a buck.

btw, dac, if youre such a geek you should get the RME stuff along with their digicheck software(free). All the analyzing you need for just about everything.

 

[Formant024]

Im actually lost on what this topic is about now lol.. Back on Topic, There soo much out these days its all about personal preference.

Where exactly did you get lost ? Its about how you justify spending your cash in this game, all out or barely and to what purpose.

ya pops hit it on the nail, after all these years i still dont have a car haha

 

[Formant024]

Gotta address this one too

And Formant, you gotta speak only your main points. Most humans reading this thread will see your dissertation and go "Yea right, I aint reading this shit". I know you're passionate, but stick to the good parts. Like when mixing, cut the freqs that dont truly matter to the end result

lol no, sometimes there's no beating around the bush, you should check how many times i wont give an answer but reflect on different perspectives instead. How on earth are you going to learn from twitter responses is beyond me haha but often 147 characters is not enough to make a valid point.


Ill give you an example

..and why would you think that during the mix, cutting freqs that "wont" matter benefit the end result ?

You would like me to say "40Hz/6dB" slope ? Because this is bs, and now i have no more room to elaborate why.

<- Insert essay here

 

[UNORTHODOX]

lol no, sometimes there's no beating around the bush, you should check how many times i wont give an answer but reflect on different perspectives instead. How on earth are you going to learn from twitter responses is beyond me haha but often 147 characters is not enough to make a valid point.


Ill give you an example

..and why would you think that during the mix, cutting freqs that "wont" matter benefit the end result ?

You would like me to say "40Hz/6dB" slope ? Because this is bs, and now i have no more room to elaborate why.

<- Insert essay here

Twitter is for microconversations. Take it to email if its that deep. Not to mention, twitter is for people that should have an understanding. You also have to infer and do some of your own research. Doesnt quite apply to how you're using it.

And to continue your (or my metaphor rather), telling someone to cut 40Hz/6db is the wrong way to teach. You tell them what they must achieve, maybe drop a video showing them, but never hand feed them the full answer. Teach them to fish, dont hand them the fish. Even take them fishing, but handing them a txt essay and expecting that to be a responsible way to make sure someone understands isnt how you go about it.

PS. gonna check the guy you posted, not ignoring it

 

[Formant024]

You also have to infer and do some of your own research.

Exactly, this is always the point, i simply recap on the experience i have assessed but its dangerous to quickly point out to what subjective or not. I know just to many examples were the subject of the matter truly is relevant to the topic but becomes rediculed because people arent willing to read.

Ill be honest with you, i dont read books either, not much anyway, manuals however...

And to continue your (or my metaphor rather), telling someone to cut 40Hz/6db is the wrong way to teach. You tell them what they must achieve, maybe drop a video showing them, but never hand feed them the full answer. Teach them to fish, dont hand them the fish. Even take them fishing, but handing them a txt essay and expecting that to be a responsible way to make sure someone understands isnt how you go about it.

PS. gonna check the guy you posted, not ignoring it

Yup, thats how i work too, reasoning is a powerful tool.Ive never been fond about making vids though, you can put more sense in such an essay than one vid. To me thats often like watching how well an apogee converter sounds on a youtube clip.

and dude, fore the record, im not out to attack anyone here even when i call out bullshit when i see it. Ive ran into people producing longer than i do that failed to realise many key issues, i point out bottlenecks and some get offended. Those that didnt took some time and leveled up and some really got themselves heard out there.
Its not me braggin n boastin here, im not a genious either, passionate yes but how can you not be when making music

 

[UNORTHODOX]

Exactly, this is always the point, i simply recap on the experience i have assessed but its dangerous to quickly point out to what subjective or not. I know just to many examples were the subject of the matter truly is relevant to the topic but becomes rediculed because people arent willing to read.

Ill be honest with you, i dont read books either, not much anyway, manuals however...

Word, man. I understand.

Yup, thats how i work too, reasoning is a powerful tool.Ive never been fond about making vids though, you can put more sense in such an essay than one vid. To me thats often like watching how well an apogee converter sounds on a youtube clip.

and dude, fore the record, im not out to attack anyone here even when i call out bullshit when i see it. Ive ran into people producing longer than i do that failed to realise many key issues, i point out bottlenecks and some get offended. Those that didnt took some time and leveled up and some really got themselves heard out there.
Its not me braggin n boastin here, im not a genious either, passionate yes but how can you not be when making music

Yea man, its all love on ILL, from me at least. And I never take anyone's tone to be that, and no one should. Its an exchange of ideas and thoughts.

 

[Formant024]

^^^ except if your name is mikelabz

 

[dacalion]

@DOX, once again my opinion is that you can't get the same results at home on an avg. setup as you can get out of a SOA studio. Once again, I am NOT saying that it isn't possible to get a good mix at home, I am saying that it's impossible on the avg. home setup. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you that it can't be done, it's "my" opinion that it can't be done. If you feel that it can then that's YOUR opinion and that's fine with me.

@Formant - I like the essays, I find them very helpful and great for referencing...the ultimate decision to purchase any gear is solely up to the individual. It's good to hear 'other' views on gear especially when they are coming from someone who has actually used the gear. I've seen so many reviews on how great X gear is when they've never tried Y gear but X is THE BEST because they own it! Some say that they've used Y gear but to little extent...kinda like when someone says "what DAW do you use?" and you respond with "FL Studio" and they say "ohhhh, Fruity Loops", in a sense that tells me that they've heard of and possibly used it in the past but Image Line doesn't even refer to their own product as "fruity loops" anymore...(I could be wrong but 1 time I searched the site for the term "Fruity Loops" and found it referring to something dealing with a 2007 beta version of 7.4)

 

[UNORTHODOX]

^^^ except if your name is mikelabz

hahaha!

@DOX, once again my opinion is that you can't get the same results at home on an avg. setup as you can get out of a SOA studio. Once again, I am NOT saying that it isn't possible to get a good mix at home, I am saying that it's impossible on the avg. home setup. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you that it can't be done, it's "my" opinion that it can't be done. If you feel that it can then that's YOUR opinion and that's fine with me.

Ok Dac. I dont know how you've come to that conclusion, and I was just sharing my experiences and counterpoints (Not my opinion, but real world examples) but, Que sera sera.

 

[dacalion]

hahaha!



Ok Dac. I dont know how you've come to that conclusion, and I was just sharing my experiences and counterpoints (Not my opinion, but real world examples) but, Que sera sera.

That's exactly what I'm saying on my part..."in real world examples" I haven't heard a basic home studio recording that can compare with the quality of a professional studio recording. I have heard a lot of good sounding music come from basic home studios but I've also heard some that sound good at home but when you listen to it on some top notch gear, it sounded like crap.

For example, I made a couple of tracks at home that sounded great on my system. Everything was in place and mixed very well imo, I saved those 2 beats @ WAV/16 bit/256kbpps. Then I gave it one last listen at home, sounded really good. I took them to the studio and listened to them and was amazed by what I heard. The highs were a bit more extreme, the mids were decent but lacked a little more presence than I like, and the bass was horrible!

So I jetted back home and went back through the construction of the song and I realized that I didn't put a cutoff on the bass (below 40Hz) nor one on the high end (above 20K). I took another listen and I still couldn't tell a difference at home. But I fixed that and I also took a copy of the beats tracked out, went back to the studio and even though it sounded better than the first go round, it still didn't truly compare to what it sounded like 100% tracked in the studio.

Then I took the studio recording back home and listened, to me they sounded almost identical! The studio recording sounded a tad bit 'warmer' but the rest was pretty close. That tells me that even if I had put my cutoffs in place on the first take, I still wouldn't have had the same quality of sound. Now I don't pretend to know it all (which is why I'm doing this crazy testing, and why I'm trying to improve my sound quality) but I really think that my home setup is limiting me and some of you as well, I mean...how could I or anyone else get those kind of results when the difference was in the gear (mostly hardware but not all) and the acoustics of the room?

This ordeal made me aware of two of my problems... (1) is my monitors...I have 3 different sets at home but the most expensive ones ran me about $400.00 (my M-Audio's) and (2) my room acoustics when doing a mix. Headphones are good for hearing whats in my mix and how well everything works together but when you put your sound on speakers everything changes.

 

[thedreampolice]

Once you use and hear nice gear you won't go back. This thread is a perfect example.

https://www.illmuzik.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29097&highlight=focal

Once you work with REAL engineers, once you mix in a real studio, once you hear what external summing can do for your mix, once you really hear how 2" tape sounds, once you hear a 3k+ mic, YOU NEVER WANT TO GO BACK.

Don't get me wrong, you should always get your music out no matter what! Hell I have been known to pull out a soldiering gun mid session and build shit just to keep the session moving along. Do what you need to do given your budget. But don't kid yourself in to thinking it is JUST as good as working with real engineers in a real studio. If I had the budget I would NEVER mix my own songs again, I ALWAYS mix other peoples stuff better than my own. For no other reason than that I am to connected to my own compositions and no longer objective. There is a reason the top mix/mastering guys in the country make TONS of money.

You can say "I know how headphones sound" but if your headphones can't reproduce 40hz it doesn't matter. You can't fix what you can't hear.

For real, once you taste the 5k bottle of wine, that box of wine from walmart no longer looks as good.

 

[dacalion]

If I only had the money that I've wasted on some of my gear...I definitely would have waited to get better gear BUT, the average person doesn't do that until they learn the hard way like myself . The funny thing is I'm NOT out there grinding to make it in this biz but I still want to be able to make quality beats at home...go figure!

But yeah, I agree...don't let that stop you from doing whatever you have to do. Make your music with what you have and improve your setup when and where you can. I'm starting from the basics and I'm looking for good deals! Nothing directly related to music but I just up'd my RAM from 8gb to 16gb, my next move will probably be in a very good interface and so on...

 

[UNORTHODOX]

I've also heard some that sound good at home but when you listen to it on some top notch gear, it sounded like crap.

This in particular seems to be your real point. Which makes me question if you naturally listen to music only in the studio (Like you're referencing)? or even if you check music in your car?

If you get it sounding good at home, on cars, in headphones etc, you can always remix it later when bigger, tighter mixes become a necessity (Or, if its that serious, get it pro-mixed). But how many people have these systems that are reproducing astronomical high freqs? How many systems truly represent the mids and low-mids? Get a mix as tight as you can, get it sounding and feeling good and stop worrying lol

Gear plays a huge factor and makes things easier, but it doesn't make or break the quality level. Basic gear'll/software provide some hiccups that you'll notice, but it wont keep you from solving it with what you have in front of you now.

Focus and determination... and a freq-analyzer lol

 

[dacalion]

My real point is...where do you draw the line? That one particular sentence was just supporting a part of that...but anyway, it's all good. I'm kinda excited about learning my limitations because in the process, I'm learning new and better ways of utilizing what I got. Since I'm not going to go out and spend a gazillion dollars on top notch gear, I will be forced to look deeper into the tools that I already have and thats the fun part to me personally. I luv testing and finding new avenues.

Analyzers - I rely on them heavily, every track that I make has one stuck on the end. (Most tracks have some stuck in the middle as well...lol). Visual aids should fall second to your ears though. I think dp really nailed it when he said "you can't do anything about a problem that you can't hear". In my experience with analyzers, you can't really see a 10 - 30hz rumble especially with the music playing so your best way of recognizing it is with your ears (if your system allows - back to the quality of your setup). I know you already know this stuff but yeah analyzers are great tools and one of my favorite tools. I couldn't imagine catching spikes or trying to shape your sound without them.

 

[UNORTHODOX]

Right, and my point about the analyzer was to counter DPs post. Anything under 50 hz isnt going to be reproduced accurately on majority of mediums anyway, you're better off Sharp cutting 50hz and dipping everything under, unless you're into doing the mathematics about your scale+ the freq' relationships to make the low-lows accurately compliment the low mids etc.

My laziness in typing strikes again lol.

To answer your OG question, I draw the line with what I have, in short. I have more than enough tools to accomplish what I need at this stage (A solid album to give a true push, and get into people's faces outside and on the internet. Im not at the stage where I cant sit down with what I have and sort out the kinks myself. When demand rises, I'll outsource it and grow).

 

[Relic]

I need some dough to improve my actual listening environment.