Where Do You Draw The Line?

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dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 259
This is a very general question because everybody doesn't have the same budget. Let's use monitors as an example...How do you determine what's right for you financially vs quality wise? As we've all seen, brand new, (decent), monitors can run you anywhere from $300 (like a pair of M-Audio BX5's) up to $16,000 (like a pair of Focal SM11's). So how do you choose? Especially since you have to consider all the other things involved (like the quality of the gear that you put in front of those speakers).

I can't speak for everyone but for me it's not as much a matter of what I can afford, it's more a matter of what I'm willing to pay, but I don't think that's the case for everyone. I make music solely for the fun of it, I'm not selling beats or even attempting to get in the business. Some of you are and I would think this should have an impact on what you purchase. The thing is, gear is very expensive! Even cheap stuff adds up by the time you get everything you need, and the thought of buying gear that would really make you truly competitive is gonna take some seriously deep pockets.

So where do you draw the line? At what point do you just say "hell no!" and what drives that decision? Is it the price only? Do you stop and think about what making music really means to you? All things considered, I'm surprised I've never heard of 'beat houses' where you can go in and rent a place that carries nothing but state-of-the-art gear. I mean, why not? We have 'Mix Studios' and 'Mastering Studios', why not a 'Beat Making Studio'?
 

wrightboy

Formally Finnigan
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 7
honestly, with me, i draw the line every time i buy a piece of equipment. and then, about 3 weeks later, i end up buying something else. lol. i'm a gear whore.

as far as how much i spend. i usually stick with the "cheap" stuff, but then always ending buying the thing that i was "unwilling" to pay for the first time. you would think i would've learned my lesson by now, but nope, still doing it.
 

slik da relic

RS Jedi
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 1
ive learned that 1) good monitors are crucial, and 2) ur eq, fx, and mixdown is crucial... the machines u use to create the sounds aint shit... i got an Korg ER1 drum machine, which was $300 when i 1st got it in 1999, and it can prolly duplicate all these virtual analog beats thats bein played today... and if it cant, i have a few other old machines that can.. once u get some high quality monitors, a mixer, fx, and an eq... ur pretty much in good shape imo.

da relic
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44
This is a very general question because everybody doesn't have the same budget. Let's use monitors as an example...How do you determine what's right for you financially vs quality wise?

What I care to pay for. Only put in the money I can afford for a piece of music production. For Monitors specifically, I never listened to music on speakers. In my house, on the way to school, in school, after school, falling asleep, I always listened to music on headphones so I know how headphones sound.

Knowing your tools and having the experience in your field allow you to not need the most. Its the user not the tool ultimately (though better, is ideal).

All things considered, I'm surprised I've never heard of 'beat houses' where you can go in and rent a place that carries nothing but state-of-the-art gear. I mean, why not? We have 'Mix Studios' and 'Mastering Studios', why not a 'Beat Making Studio'?

Why when you can get close enough at home for a fraction of the price? (One time payment). How many people are generating the $$ to afford that? Then theres the security/stealing beats thing.
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 259
Why when you can get close enough at home for a fraction of the price? (One time payment). How many people are generating the $$ to afford that? Then theres the security/stealing beats thing.

I think more cases than not (especially dealing with music gear) you pretty much get what you pay for...The idea of renting as opposed to buying top notch gear is derived from the cost of a high quality setup of real gear (not VST's) and in a real mixing atmosphere like a tuned room.

As far as how many could afford that...I would guess very close to the same numbers of people that can afford to have their music professionally mixed and mastered. Most business models are based on quota's, the price would definitely coincide with how much business is being generated up to the point of over demand. Then the price can be raised, exceeding the quota and maintaining a constant flow of business.

I don't think security and stealing beats would be an issue on behalf of the business. You rent the facility and take your work with you or make sure it's secured in a safe place at the facility.
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44
I think you're over estimating the market. More than 20$ an hour and its not economical nor smart for most people making beats. Not too many people are actually sending their music for mixing. Very few artists that most would consider "on" go for mastering, and to think that one location has enough beat makers that want to pay for using the top gear is unrealistic to me. Majority of people just do it for fun.

Like I said, the numbers would have to be really low to convince people to NOT learn how to mix themselves, not pirate VSTs, not pirate DAWs, and buy a 200$ midi keyboard and make as much music as they want, anytime they want in the comfort of their own homes. You're fight alot of elements that notoriously end companies/industries (vsts, and hardware companies for ex, not to mention regular studios going out of business themselves for the very same technology and convienience pushing them out of business).
 

Sucio

Old and dirty...
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 304
as far as stealing beats....


That is always an issue. You want your material to touch as minimal hands as possible. especially if you're creating the entire thing there...


I wouldn't pay a dime for something I could get or do at home....


I wish monitors would work in my apt, but the way it's laid out, there would be way too much reflection.... Plus after purchasing my beyerdynamics dt770, I feel that I don't need monitors for what I do at home....I could always bring it into a studio for reference, but that's only for any projects that need that kind of attention....
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 259
The whole 'Beat Making Studio' thing was just a random thought...what I'd really like to know is where do you draw the line when it comes to gear. It's very hard for me because I refuse to spend a gazillion dollars on top of the line gear when it's not something that I'm truly pursuing. Making beats for fun and making them to put food on the table are 2 totally different things imo...Ofc, if the opportunity arose that making beats would be very lucrative, then yeah without a doubt I'd do it. I'm not trying to sell beats, but if I were, I would really have to look at the gear I'm using.

Can a person make dope beats at home? Ofc, they can....Can they make it sound good? Ofc, they can...Can a true 'studio quality' beat be made at home on the avg. home setup? I don't think so. We've seen the video's of top dogs making dope beats at home BUT they don't have avg. gear either. They've got multi-thousand dollar monitors, they've got multi-thousand dollar gear AT HOME and that's where my question comes in.
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44
Ok, a base number would be 300 for a pair. I cant imagine spending more for at home. If Im building a studio, you pay for the top, but I dont need the top stuff. 350 max shipping included lol.

Can a person make dope beats at home? Ofc, they can....Can they make it sound good? Ofc, they can...Can a true 'studio quality' beat be made at home on the avg. home setup? I don't think so. We've seen the video's of top dogs making dope beats at home BUT they don't have avg. gear either. They've got multi-thousand dollar monitors, they've got multi-thousand dollar gear AT HOME and that's where my question comes in.

Whats a studio quality beat? That doesnt even make sense to me. VSTs have zero degradation, today's computers give you the processing power to command plugins of huge libraries of sounds, and orchestras at your finger tips. So it cant be the sound that makes "studio quality" beats. Is it the mixing? no, just blaze mixed Show Me What You Got with Ozone on an airplane on his laptop and headphones (His words). So that cant be it. Only thing left, is the person, the user. And there may be some credit to that. Professional level producers have the skills that takes decades to acquire. But to say someone at home isnt able to achieve this level is crazy, this isnt rock where you need the knowledge to mic 10 drums and such, its hiphop. And even rock is leaning towards drum machines and vsts.

Your Kungfu is weak today Dac lol
 

Krazyfingaz

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 2
I paid $350.00 for my monitors when they first dropped and that was back in 05' and they still bang. my personal preference is if I want it I'll get it whether they're $3000.00 monitors but in today's economy I wouldn't shell out more than $500.00 for a pair of monitors. I also wouldn't pay more than $200.00 for a set of monitor headphones neither. If I can get the same gear that's in big studios for a bargain so be it tho If I can get my mixes to sound damn near CD quality with minimal gear possible than I keep it that way; simple and sweet. All that extra ish that are in big studios can honestly stay there until I come across a a few million. lol yea Dac your Kung Fu is a lil weak today bro.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Here's a bit of reality :)

Just blaze is on a level that he WILL have it mastered after he "mastered" it himself. His work has ended up a lot at Sterling Sound and he has his own team at Redstream.

http://musicproducertv.wordpress.co...y-z-baseline-studios-mastering-and-equipment/

Anyway, he's leaving it to the people who know what they're doing because in reality those beatcreaters have lil bits of understanding everything, that doesnt make them a ME. Most of what beatcreaters call mastering is using simple chain to add beef to their production for motivational purpose, it reflects at best for them how it will sound when mastered.

OW look! a gml 8200 in the mastering suite :) Loving the flux capacitor :)
---


I throw the term bedroom techie around a lot here because 99% on this site lack the most important aspect for either mixing or mastering which is the room of course. You can treat your bedroom the best way you can but its still the same room so treatment of a room comes secondary to creating a reference room and shaping a room is primary.

Then we have nearfields, ive seen some crazy stuff, people with HS80's in a 9m2 room and not giving a fuck about every frequency ringing around the room. I cant say it enough but monitors are in ratio with room size. Its safe to say that most often there is no point to look at drivers larger than 6.5" if the room you work in is smaller than 35m2.

Then there are the types of producers, some people wont bother about mixing/mastering at all, they will just add anything that gives their track beef. They also will not really care about the ethics because theyre mainly about composing tracks. You can place these producers in any room, it will not stop them from being creative, shitty room, shitty mics you name they use it. I also know people that have a shitload of gear but cant get passed making a loop, they still enjoy making noodles out on modulars on which theyve spend thousands.

Then there's the semi pro beatcreator. The room shape isnt where its at but its treated, has a few high end stuff (a pair of distressors are populair), no budget nearfields and things dre uses. These people still have their tracks often mixed/mastered by someone else but when semi pro gains succes, outsourcing to a good ME takes out the semi in semi pro.

Then there are freaks that never stop learning, drawing conclusions all the time and discovering bottlenecks and narrowing them down. They go through lots of trial and error to learn the ethics because their drive is to gain the best sound possible. This is an endless path lol, we're never done with the studio and the danger here is hitting the roof when knowledge/experience will imply that grading up the neccesary is inevitable to get a better result. You lose the pleasure of working because you're confronted with bottlenecks, shit is holding you back and investing in the appropiate gear is the only way up.

So where you draw the line imo depends on what type of person you are, if you feel dedicated, even if its a hobby than the treshold is with your experience. A lesson well learned will point out the flaws and will refer to a better substitute.

@unorthodox;

I never assume there is a difference between genres with exception on how to deal with certain acoustic instruments in respect to the musician's skills. Its ethics that belong with genres but on a pro level you dont think much different about rock or hiphop, edm whatever.

If you have the api2500 plugin than you owe api your life lol BUT if you own an api 2500 you never look back to what you said before about the plugin. Granted that technology(read convolution technique) is really getting better, its still a concession in your wallet and a substitute for hardware in the form of a snapshot of the real machine's potential. Aside from that, various pieces of hardware in a setup are a palette of sonic characters whereas the sonic character of an itb setup is depended of your soundcard.

Again, spending the money in a justified fashion is personal. Its easy for me to recommend something worth over $1500 bucks, you need to be convinced yourself that it will be an asset to your quality or workflow because your understand how it will benefit you. Not because premier or random succesful producer uses it, no because your learningcurve pointed out that its the next step.

Can it create potential revenue ? again, it depends on the first 2 primaries and your own justified persuasion that it would really benefit you after investing.
Going ITB was hot for a second for example but a lot people still realise that for the true high end setups you still depend on hardware. It doesnt need to be a million bucks anymore due to technology indeed but let me throw in my experience with our studio timeline, investments and exploit.

initial setup with 50K budget

-facility/rent + construction/treatment = entrance/lounge + controlroom 35m2 and recording room 30m2
-soundtraks topaz project 32-32-8 inline with a set of 1031a's, logic running on a pc running logic through a rme(through adat connected to fostex d90 and d160. Outboards from digitech, LA 4x4 comps, dbx166xl, small backline of gear and a few mics with a Solidtube mic as main.

exploits were demos and budget recordings, 3 years later and 300% liquidity.

Next upgrade, new location 5k invested on construction, place is roughly 10x bigger, especialy in height. Rme hdsp/fostex got replaced by motu 3x 1224's, spent 3k on mogami cable and gold plated neutriks plugs, replaced all plugs on the topaz with goldplated neutrik. switched to mac g4.

exploits increase and rec/mixing better names, liquidity slightly improved.

next update, mac octocore + ssl alphalink, mosses & mitchell patchbays, KH o300s, no console, automated vca, several modified telefunken and siemens units, modified octavias and a few vintages.

exploits the same, yet level is getting better and more side exploits.

Added api2500, hammer eq, chandler amp and a fatso into a hybrid mastering chain.

added mastering to exploits after getting artist from universal to do their mastering.

----

Here, you can save some pennies by not needing to go through this hehe, none of us are rich. And even though this concerns a project studio, it still applies the same ethics for the bedroom studio. If you have a good room and are somewhat serious, albeit pro or as a musician/hobbyist then the price to get up specs are cheaper then when i started, this is a fact. But i can say that our chain is good enough and bares the absolute minimum to get you into mastering.

Its not about what is used but whatever needs 24chnls for a project studio can easily be substituted for the same model but 8 chnls for the bedroom techie. Currently the ssl/madi is unbeatable quality when looking what you pay for dollars per channel. Thats the only exception to consider, even if your low on using outboard, this might change in the future so it offers expansion. Also, not all improvements are expensive as there's lots you can do yourself. Things like making sure your power fed to the machines is a stable one, plasterwalls, rockwool and metalframes are not expensive either, you can make very good roomtreatment yourself aswell, if you need cable then it wont be as much work or money as soldering a 196 neutriks on mogami, and once again, you can use smaller speakers which are in cheaper. The hardware api, hammer eq and fatso are not the most expensive pieces of gear ever...now as far as im concerned, a lot of new synths can be replaced by vst's on that i agree. Still, lots of cats still buy big workstation synths of which 2 of those beast could easily pay for api,hammer and fatso together.
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 259
hahaha wooosaaaah! =) DOX is getting heated! It's just my beliefs bro, everybody has their own personal beliefs and one of mine is that it's impossible to make a studio quality beat at home on the avg. setup. I NEVER said it couldn't be done (you're omitting the "avg. home setup part). I agree that some VST's are great BUT most can't compare to the real thing AND the price of great VST's are very steep as well.

Def. - Studio Quality Beat = equals a beat made on SOA gear, in a facility made for making music.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
yes dac, but the facility can be yours at a reasonable price and hours of work, some people just spend that money because its their hobby. The learningcurve for these people point out the neccesity for such a budget. You have to face the fact that if your a vet producer then you probably already have spent the same money that you couldve used on for exactly getting that sound at home. I think ive easily spend 30-35k on personal gear, the computers, synths, samplers, turntables etc etc etc. and thats the point. If you were to make a choice rightnow and re-invest the money you spend so far youd probably end up with just that highend ITB setup, 3 high-end outboard, proper cables the lot and a midicontroller/maschine/mpc renaissance whatever...
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 259
You're right! I would've done things alot different. Some things I would keep, my MV is still the king of ALL my samplers including Maschine (that remark is for dp only!!!...)lol.

This is me right here (but I will never lose the pleasure)...
Formant said:
Then there are freaks that never stop learning, drawing conclusions all the time and discovering bottlenecks and narrowing them down. They go through lots of trial and error to learn the ethics because their drive is to gain the best sound possible. This is an endless path lol, we're never done with the studio and the danger here is hitting the roof when knowledge/experience will imply that grading up the neccesary is inevitable to get a better result. You lose the pleasure of working because you're confronted with bottlenecks, shit is holding you back and investing in the appropiate gear is the only way up.
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44

Yo, not to nullify your essay but, he said beat making, and that's what I was responding to. Not the mastering parts. You lumped the whole thread against my response which is negligible from someone that likes to post knowledgeable and sharp thoughts such as yourself. You're points against mine were defeated from the jump, your kung fu is weak also.

But, You do agree that all genres require the same skills, so you get points for that. But to think you can't make pro quality productions, key word, productions (Which is what we were talking about) in a home enviroment, with what is available on the internet is disrespectful to those that achieve it.

hahaha wooosaaaah! =) DOX is getting heated! It's just my beliefs bro, everybody has their own personal beliefs and one of mine is that it's impossible to make a studio quality beat at home on the avg. setup. I NEVER said it couldn't be done (you're omitting the "avg. home setup part). I agree that some VST's are great BUT most can't compare to the real thing AND the price of great VST's are very steep as well.

Def. - Studio Quality Beat = equals a beat made on SOA gear, in a facility made for making music.

Lol at you saying its impossible, then in the next sentence, you say, you didnt say it cant be done. Second, you omit the fact that the best digital tools are freely pirated and you never made the distinction of not using wares. Define a truly average home setup in this day and age.

Another story about mixing, I cant remember names but I did the research on the people involved.

A guy in germany was trying to mix his song. He contacted a big mix engineer that was a few miles away and the guy came to his house (Paying for expenses and some food). He used the guys setup and showed him every step of the way how to get a pro sound out of his crappy setup. The enigineer then deleted everything and made him do it himself. That pro arguement is bullshit. Its the person, and I dont know what you are truly basing it on besides your own aspirations of quality and percieved short comings.

and another lol, coming from a person that I recall being heavy on sampling, how can you say sample-based vsts arent close to the real thing? How many of todays record actually use the real thing? How many on hiphops greatest records truly used the real thing?? lol not heated, just find it funny. Your Kungfu is still weak Dac. Stop trying to hit me and hit me hahaha
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
I dont practice kung fu, i conceil my identity :)

Dox, that wasnt entirely devoted in a response to you. I just kept on typing lol

but on the real though, beatmaking == producing. On that part i pointed out that there is no distinction between the 2 because either are subjected to the ethics of production/mixing/mastering. If you get that part you'd also understand that there also wouldnt be any reason to treat dance music any differently than hiphop music. To me its the same discussion when someone says that an mc is not rapper or vice versa..
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44
Def. - Studio Quality Beat = equals a beat made on SOA gear, in a facility made for making music.

Gotta address this one too

If I can make the same beat, same mix at home with different tools, and just a bit more time, what did the expensive studio really accomplish? Dont let your gearlust, and others thoughts cloud you're own path. To think you cant do something with what you have, right now is a borderline defeatist attitude when YOU are the only thing keeping that from happening. From achieving that. And I address your comments because I dont want someone seeing this to believe their money will keep them from growing beyond, and dropping 3-30Gs to chase some gearlust that they heard from someone else, when its the user that dictates quality.

And Formant, you gotta speak only your main points. Most humans reading this thread will see your dissertation and go "Yea right, I aint reading this shit". I know you're passionate, but stick to the good parts. Like when mixing, cut the freqs that dont truly matter to the end result
 

UNORTHODOX

Father Timeless
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 44
I dont practice kung fu, i conceil my identity :)

Dox, that wasnt entirely devoted in a response to you. I just kept on typing lol

but on the real though, beatmaking == producing. On that part i pointed out that there is no distinction between the 2 because either are subjected to the ethics of production/mixing/mastering. If you get that part you'd also understand that there also wouldnt be any reason to treat dance music any differently than hiphop music. To me its the same discussion when someone says that an mc is not rapper or vice versa..

lol Ok, I reread it. And agreed. But to think pro-Trance cant be produced at home isnt correct. I know the mixing in trance famously needs more attention but there are tools that compensate. Analysers, and some hardwares. etc, you still must know what you're doing.
 
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