Production What about beatmakers that dont know basic music theory

[drex]

Very good very good...
For my purposes I think I'll play it by ear.
I mean, I make beats for myself, if someone else likes or wants one, cool, namean?
Not being able to describe an off sound is ok with me, as long as I notice it
Same thing with sample usage, I make beats to stop the nightmares, not to get signed...
If it blows, awesome... But I'm not so sure I even want that anymore...

Thanks for the advice and info, seeing as its something I can pick up over a few months, I think I'll get on it should I need it.

 

[dacalion]

Respect that^^^, I think the general consent is that it is valuable knowledge but it's not a necessity. Knowing music theory isn't gonna define who you are as a producer whether you make it big or not. You do you, do your music, continue to learn as you go and most importantly, have fun with it!

 

[Sucio]

What harm would learning music theory do?

If you want to learn it...do it...is it a necessity? No...

Would it make you a better beat maker/producer? Most likely


You can hear it being out of key...but it takes practice.....you may not know what key it's in...but working up or down the keys to get the sound that fits works, also...

Chord books/charts are awesome.

Basically you know how far you want your music to go....if you want to expand and try to maybe make it a career...I would say, go and learn the shit......this way you can delve into other genres and maybe develop a new unique sound.

 

[Iron Keys]

Theory is great (im not knocking it) but if you don't have the skill to make music theory is not going to help you. I've been in studios with great pianist that are session players for top producers and a lot of them can't put shit together on their own. They have theory mastered but they can compose good material. Now they can interpolate/mimic other peoples work very well but so can anyone with a chord book and skill

If you're the producer, then you should know how you want the track to sound. What do you tell your session musicians "errrm, yeah, play some cool pianos, narrr mean? Nar nar, that's wrong, more like, different narr mean?"

Gotta be speaking the same language.



Saves time. Time is money.

Saves time. Time that is otherwise spent losing the creative buzz or inspiration that initially hit.


It's like wanting to be a sound engineer and not understanding sound?



It's well worth knowing and makes making music easier. It's also another string to your bow. It also shows how serious you are about what you do. It can lose you opportunities.




As for sampling, think of it this way... if you just rocked up in a shop and was like, "damnn that shirt got some cool ass sleeves" went n chopped the sleeves off and expect to walk away with shit for free because you sampling it? You making money off of someone elses work. How about if someone took your beat, made money off it? Beef.

How about if someone robbed half your stash, but it's cool cause they just 'sampling' it.

 

[drex]

Funny analogies for sampling...
Sampling is fucked up because the wrong people arengetting paid and the wrong people have the power.
If I grab a three seconds of muted trumpet, chop it into .5 second bites, stomp em till the depth is similar to Atari 2600 strength, and team the chops up with an ugly old piano from a sesame streeet episode about being afraid of the dark, who should be able to deny me the use of those sounds?
Most likely they wont even be recognized by the original artist.
Now if I put on a record, pressed record, came back 4 minutes later threw in some lil john yeahs, and hit save, I should be put out of business, but theres a vast difference between somebody who rips off sleeves and someone who unravels threads.

 

[Greg Savage]

If you're the producer, then you should know how you want the track to sound. What do you tell your session musicians "errrm, yeah, play some cool pianos, narrr mean? Nar nar, that's wrong, more like, different narr mean?"

Gotta be speaking the same language.



Saves time. Time is money.

Saves time. Time that is otherwise spent losing the creative buzz or inspiration that initially hit.


It's like wanting to be a sound engineer and not understanding sound?



It's well worth knowing and makes making music easier. It's also another string to your bow. It also shows how serious you are about what you do. It can lose you opportunities.

No actually what I do if reference other tracks and I don't come off as an ignorant fuck saying "narr mean nar mean". As a professional producer/sound designer I know exactly how I want things to sound and how to achieve with or without a session player. When I'm in a bigger studio working on a project right then and there sure I'll use the session player(faster).

I've gotten to a point where I've memorized chords and certain scales for what I need to get done. I know what chords work together but do I understand why or the theory behind it...no and what i don't know takes a few minutes if that to figure it out(if needed). My lack of knowledge on theory has never lost me an opportunity this could be because I don't work with artist. I do jingle music for your wifes/girlfriends favorite Reality TV show and video games where that shit just isn't important it's about the final product in the end how you got there doesn't matter. This is generally hiphop/rnb music,dub step,dnb,orchestral music etc

My argument isn't that theory isn't helpful I'm just saying it isn't needed. I'm not sure where you've been in life but I've been around too many production camps of (Dre,nottz,Dark Child,Neptunes etc) to know that hey Theory is not something that is needed. I've sat with too many fakebook sifters. True if they actually knew what they were doing it would be a lot faster (I'm not denying that) it's just not something that is needed that's all im saying nothing more nothing less.

 

[Iron Keys]

I've gotten to a point where I've memorized chords and certain scales for what I need to get done. I know what chords work together but do I understand why or the theory behind it...no

You've memorised chords and scales and know what chords work together. That is 'knowing music theory', it's not knowing it to its full, but it's knowing it.

As the thread title says.

 

[Greg Savage]

You've memorised chords and scales and know what chords work together. That is 'knowing music theory', it's not knowing it to its full, but it's knowing it.

As the thread title says.

Maybe I should learn to read titles...

 

[Iron Keys]

Maybe I should learn to read titles...

A basic understanding of thread title theory is essential for making good responses to threads!

 

[Formant024]

Im with NNXT, i get enough knowledge playing keys though gaining notation, composition & sheet reading skills will benefit your playing skills. I personaly dont feel its a benefit in my situation because i dont play any instrument. I wont grow out to be a musician annex producer, im an electronics producer pur sang which goes for a lot of hiphop producers.

I also kinda refer to it as a singer getting singing lessons, some people absolutely need it and sometimes those lessons kill naturaly good vocal.

 

[Lil Dude]

to nxt i agree with you because of the fact i am now just learning theory. and ive been making beats for a while and i basically went by ear i found that sound i liked and wanted and just messed around with the key found my note of chord and just peiced it together most of the time piece by piece aeven tho sometime for example my piano playing would be 8 bars of playing i actualy really just pieced it together. if you know what i'm trying to say...But i does come in hand knowing theory no doubt.

 

[Medl4]

@Iron keys, why are you hating on sampling? Im actually listening to your soundcloud right now, you dont really seem to understand the basics about this form of music.if you think everyone should play their own melodies your high, sampling IS hip hop fella. Your coming off super arrogant and snobby about this shit when your basically producing some pop radio friendly run of the mill industry beats. Music theory or not dude, thats like arguing about what the shit was made on, if its hot its hot, end of story.

 

[Sucio]

As for sampling, think of it this way... if you just rocked up in a shop and was like, "damnn that shirt got some cool ass sleeves" went n chopped the sleeves off and expect to walk away with shit for free because you sampling it? You making money off of someone elses work. How about if someone took your beat, made money off it? Beef.

How about if someone robbed half your stash, but it's cool cause they just 'sampling' it.

And you're saying this in a "HIP-HOP" forum....

Here's a history lesson, lad...


Hip-hop STARTED with sampling....The greatest hip-hop songs of ALL time are nearly all sampled....the FIRST hit in hip-hop was sampled.....

To sit there and bash sampling like it's an inferior way to create music is ridiculous.


I'm assuming that you're playing every instrument that you put down in your music........not playing it all through a keyboard, right?

So you're picking up a violin, cello, trumpet...mic'ed them up and started playing them all, right?

I'm assuming you called in a choir to sing part of the track, right? Maybe even picked up a guitar half way through the track and thought it would be a good idea?

I'm also assuming that you paid for all of your sounds and your DAW too, right?


Pardon my french, but...get the fuck outta here with that shit.....


you're basically taking sounds that other people created and playing them through your keyboard.......

Stop sitting there and act like you're some kind of high class musician, homie.....

 

[Iron Keys]

I know all about the history, man. I ain't trying to knock sampling... I love it. I just don't do it much any more.

If you release a track with uncleared samples, and it starts making moolah, you gonna get raped up the batty-crease, homeboy.

Genuinely didn't mean to sound as if I was bashing sampling.

Haaa.

Looking at some of the responses, some people getting heated, so perhaps I miscommunicated what I was trying to.

Sampling is dope,

But you wanna talk about history of things, half these sample cats, had good understanding and knowledge of music.

So even the sample driven people, come from a musical place.

So don't think I'm hating on sampling when I grew up bumping all the mega oldschool shit.

I just think it's ignorant to think hiphop involves no understanding of music. which ALL the greats had to some extent.

You wanna make good hiphop? Study jazz, blues, study some really old ass shit, don't get why? Then you ain't in place to be dropping arguments.

"But's okay, I make bangers"

Trust, contextualise the sampling.



@Sucio... regarding playing shit... I've actually been busting my fingers for months trying to get good with guitars to record my own shit. Actually planning to record drummers and bass guitarists. Why? Cause I ain't someone who is stuck in arrogant ways of "oh i'll just program it's fine" or "oh i'll just sample" ... i bet half the cats banging on about sampling don't even know the history of that shit.

Genuinely ain't mean to offend anyone here. Just saying, 'basic music theory', you telling me you can make music without it? You know what a bar is right? That's basic music theory.

People swinging too far either side of the pendulum.

 

[dacalion]

well spoken...

 

[Iron Keys]

@Iron keys, why are you hating on sampling? Im actually listening to your soundcloud right now, you dont really seem to understand the basics about this form of music.if you think everyone should play their own melodies your high, sampling IS hip hop fella. Your coming off super arrogant and snobby about this shit when your basically producing some pop radio friendly run of the mill industry beats. Music theory or not dude, thats like arguing about what the shit was made on, if its hot its hot, end of story.

If you've ever seen the showcase section, I often got mad love for a lot o' cats sample based tracks.

Some o' my favourite producers include cats like Alchemist, Just Blaze.

I don't hate sampling.

I don't knock the people that do.

But I'm saying, everyone has/needs basic music theory understanding... else how you making your shit in time? You wouldnt have a clue what you doing.

As for the ripping sleeves analogy, I wern't bashing people, or sampling, I was speaking from a music business side of ish.

I think sampling rules are bit harsh, but if you look at them, and think about them, it ends up making largely a lot of sense.

Comes down to a lot of law/rights type shit. Why not record a band and sample that? come up with something bare original.

Again, was never hatin', so don't get your panties in a twist, people.

 

[Sucio]

We all know sample clearance is an issue...

We also must know that people were making money off of sampled records for a long time.



Also know if it gets to that point where you're paying the money you made on a beat to the original artist, you've made a big enough impact on the game.

And I'm not just saying that from my own experience, I'm just stating the advice given to me from a platinum recording artist/producer.

Also, as a producer, you can also protect yourself with a contract with the artist, stating that you are not responsible for any sample clearance if the track is used commercially. Many labels will consider the sample clearance if it will be beneficial to the artist's success, and will draw more money at the end. With that you may sacrifice the back end residuals, but you will get the upfront money and assurance that you won't have to pay any of that back. Not to mention the credit on the track especially if it goes huge....which is probably the biggest benefit.

I do think the "music theory" conversation isn't specific enough...because every one has SOME knowledge of it...and the most basic knowledge IS needed...

 

[Iron Keys]

Most contracts have a section like this...

"the artist warrants that it is the sole owner of all aspects of the Recordings and that the Recordings are free of any third party intellectual property rights or any other encumbrances. In the event that the Recordings embody any so-called ‘samples’, the Artist warrants that all such samples have been cleared for exploitation and will incur no liability or further cost to the Label;"

Thing with contracts though, most major labels' legal team can break ANY contract. But I ain't gonna get into that now anyway.

But yeah, DJ Premier is one of my top favourite producers of all time, so to say I hate/bash sampling is a bit bate.



If you seen my feedback on Showcase section, I never bash people for using samples. I like listening to this shit people coming up with.

Just I personally, in my own work, have an obsession with originality... and a proper DIY type, if I could play/record/mix everything myself, I'm likely try to. I enjoy music... why would I limit myself?!


Someone sampled some guys recording of a fucked up printer on youtube, record label released it, the guy went to sue the label, but they all sued the guy, he's now bankrupt... i believe.


Either way, my last point is...

Stay making dope music. Don't let ignorance or arrogance (or ego) stand in your way. If you truly love music, understand it on a deeper level, not just 'oh i'll press some buttons in FL' or 'I'll just chop a sample up randomly'.
Understand the ideas behind the people that came before you, and understand what they understood, then take that and move forward.

Love

 

[drex]

I just wanna know if I gotta legato my chords before I hammond the 808s

This is awesome. i wish it was real time tho like in a bar slash lounge with a bunch of ins and a massive system....

Look, yeah, we all know something about it...
Pretty sure nobody makes heat by complete mistake...
And we all got bangers

This reminds me.
Dont focus on the worst possible understanding of something I say... Thats boody
Nobody likes bein misunderstood...
You quote that line as if i'm some buttonmasher with caulifowered ears

Just wanna know if advancing my technical music knowledge is likely to get in the way of the creative process for hiphop.
Some of you have more experience than I do...
I dont want the hang up of worrying about some slight element when the joint woulda been fire without the stress.
Sometimes tmi can be a hindrance to the act of DOIN IT.
I am not some kinda flukey beatmaker, I dont think any of us are...

And yes I sample, but there is a serious difference between a 12 second loop, and the attack of a horn stab. They shouldnt even both be called sampling.
The only similarity they have at that point in the process is they both presumably passed thru a mix engineer and or masterers hands.
I dont see why anita baker has the right to refuse my use of a snare, she didnt make, didnt write' didnt play, didnt mix.... Well, Some argue she made it famous.
I'll say this then, if you pick the sweet love snare out of this group of ten snares, I'll make you a sandwich.
I'll bet She couldn't pick it out.
What I want in that snare is the tracking, and the mixing. Idgaf what vocals follow

 

[Iron Keys]

I've found learning music theory (even though I'm still basic) has helped majorly.

But then I'm playing original melodies etc

I dunno how much it'll help with triggering samples in the traditional/basic sense. It'll help with perhaps tuning them or how/when you trigger them. I doubt very much that it'd be a hinderence.


I'd say it still helps if you wanna make dance based music. But then is 'dance' based music you're gonna claim is too 'industry' or 'mainstream', you don't need to start playing complicated symphonies to make a catchy dance track, but that's not the aim of learning theory. Use it to educate and inform what you're already doing.