Thoughts on elitism and conspiracy threads here.

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No I see what he is saying tho mastermind, well what both of you are saying, if you go with what you are calling the self defeatism theory there then the french revolution and and all the stuff you just listed would never have happened yes?
BUT even though those things HAVE happened, the old elitism has just been replaced by NEW elitism!
Hati is good example of that. Sure there arent french slave holders there, and thats good, but the conditions there still suck for the majority while a small faction will always be living it up.
Word!!
There will always be those that seek to use the machinery of power for illicit ends, no matter what ism it is under.
Communism was a great idea in theory but in practice its just another elite. No matter how many peoples revolutions take place, there will always be an elite that seeks to look after itself at everyones expense.
If there was a revolution tomorow and the current elite was overthrown it would simply be replaced a new elite.
That is an inescapable fact, what the people can do is educate themselves. Increase your knowledge and dont be blindfolded to the lies and propaganda and make informed decisions based on a balanced view of the situation and not a predetermined(what they expect from you) decision based on lies and propaganda.
When the human race is dumbed down then we stagnate, creativity and invention will stumble and we will not progress as a species, I think that is spitting in the face of the gifts we have been given as a race over any other species on earth. Whether the gift of imagination was granted by god or if we evolved it, it doesnt matter, how we use it is of the most importance.
Personally I think creativity and technological evolution and species advancement is the meaning of life.
Without that we have no purpose, except be a cancer on the world and continue to cause destruction for our own very selfish ends.
 

dahkter

Ill Muzikoligist
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 4
I'm with Mastermind on this.

I think it's crucial that people research and speak up on the current state of affairs (as well as the past - know your past, know your future). I think it's a cop out to say "well, there's always gonna be someone at the top abusing power and screwing people over".

Keep in mind that governments will always be necessary to maintain infrastructure (build highways), to give a voice to it's people (in an ideal democracy) and to defend it's citizens (armies/etc).

If things are handled in a moralistic way, for the betterment of human kind, than we are on the right path. If those at the top are putting money and material gain before human life, and 1% live like kings while 99% cannot eat, then yes, we have a problem and it needs to be aired out and solutions need to be found.

Let's be real - there are some problems in the World right now - violent conflict / food shortages / environmental destruction - etc. Yes, all of this has been going on since the beginning of time, however with tools like the internet when you can talk to people around the world in real time, and find a wealth of information in seconds, it's critical that people take advantage of this technology and discuss the situation as well as find solutions.

If people want to chill and do nothing, that's their choice. However don't try to sell that kind of ideology as "the truth".
 

Relic

Voice of Illmuzik Radio
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 83
But by all means keep revolting!

Just make sure your on the winning side and helped alot, and you will be in the elite and you can be like "What the hell are you talking about?" lol

And Dahk its not a cop out its true!
Name a revolution that didnt result in just a different elite, the important thing is to keep a broad middle class in your nation, without that no one has anything to aspire for. Thats where your revolt will happen
 
I'm with Mastermind on this.

I think it's crucial that people research and speak up on the current state of affairs (as well as the past - know your past, know your future). I think it's a cop out to say "well, there's always gonna be someone at the top abusing power and screwing people over".

Keep in mind that governments will always be necessary to maintain infrastructure (build highways), to give a voice to it's people (in an ideal democracy) and to defend it's citizens (armies/etc).

If things are handled in a moralistic way, for the betterment of human kind, than we are on the right path. If those at the top are putting money and material gain before human life, and 1% live like kings while 99% cannot eat, then yes, we have a problem and it needs to be aired out and solutions need to be found.

Let's be real - there are some problems in the World right now - violent conflict / food shortages / environmental destruction - etc. Yes, all of this has been going on since the beginning of time, however with tools like the internet when you can talk to people around the world in real time, and find a wealth of information in seconds, it's critical that people take advantage of this technology and discuss the situation as well as find solutions.

If people want to chill and do nothing, that's their choice. However don't try to sell that kind of ideology as "the truth".

The only solution to the worlds problems is for everyone to get smart, be interested in world affairs, work the brain muscle up to the capacity that it can see the evil wherever it is. Most people dont see the evil, or feel that "what can that one person do?" Encourage people to learn stuff, especially history(as boring as it was in school I find it one of the most fascinating subjects now). When you know how the common man has been manipulated in the past you can see the very same tactics being employed today. A scared population is a subservient population.
Enough people have to get smart to the idea that greed destroys us, happyness is a state of mind not state of bank balance.
People need to realise that is the corporations that destroy the earth, and the human soul.
But like I said, it doesnt matter because I truly beleive a new "Elite" will take control.
There is a percentage in the human population that seek to control the rest, its an undeniable aspect of human nature. Can we change the nature of man? Religion did do a good part in controlling mans nature, thats its main benefit in my opinion, with the decline of religion, without the fear of god, people are more willing to do things without fear of consequence. I dont say bring back religion, but I do say something akin to the ten commandments - Good moral values, to be lived by like law, would be a good solution. And then if everyone has the values enforced upon them(legally) then they will be able to recognise corruption and immoral behaviour and punish it wherever it happens. The world doesnt need religion it needs moral values, the most important thing any religion can provide. Only religion does it through a fear of god, moral law does it by fear of the "moral police", lol
 

dahkter

Ill Muzikoligist
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 4
Name a revolution that didnt result in just a different elite, the important thing is to keep a broad middle class in your nation, without that no one has anything to aspire for. Thats where your revolt will happen

I just would be careful confusing "a different elite" with a better or worse infrastructure. I'm not advocating a total overthrow, more of a correction. The woman's suffragist moevement, the civil rights movement, child labor laws, the end of apartheid, all of these movements were possible due to a loud minority speaking up and rocking the boat.

If governments are actively harming the masses, it's the duty of the people to step up and work to create change.
 
I just would be careful confusing "a different elite" with a better or worse infrastructure. I'm not advocating a total overthrow, more of a correction. The woman's suffragist moevement, the civil rights movement, child labor laws, the end of apartheid, all of these movements were possible due to a loud minority speaking up and rocking the boat.

If governments are actively harming the masses, it's the duty of the people to step up and work to create change.
I agree entirely.
Total government transparency, no secrets. If they are doing our bidding we should know exactly everything they are doing
to spend our hard earned money.

The more I think about it the more I realise its the human nature thats at fault, human nature has many aspects, covering every human that has ever lived. Because each and everyone of us is different and diversity covers the whole good bad spectrum, there will always be bad people, you cant stop that, without bad how do you recognise good? and same for the reverse. Its the ying and yang of the universe. Without ying you cant have yang, you need to positive and negative to maintain an eternal balance of the universe. Thats why evil is a part of every human being, nearly all of us commit evil acts at some point in our lives. And many good ones too. And there is every shade of grey in between, thats diversity.
 

dahkter

Ill Muzikoligist
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 4
I dont say bring back religion, but I do say something akin to the ten commandments - Good moral values, to be lived by like law, would be a good solution.

I agree with this, I think many of the world's problems could be solved by the golden rule - "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself". With no morals, and no concern for your fellow human beings predicament, I agree that the downward spiral will continue. The problem as you mention is that it's damn near impossible to legislate or encourage this kind of behaviour on a societal level (although it is one of the righteous goals of religion IMO).

This kind of positive way of life is really in the hands of a person's immediate family and their community (it takes a village to raise a child). If you grow up with people showing you the right way, you can do some great things which will have an impact. If you grow up with no respect or regards for actions and reactions, than you're gonna make things worse out there.

My hope lies in the fact that people are generally good. If you see an old person trying to open a heavy door, you're gonna step up and help them. It's just unfortunate that people can't adapt that type of energy on a global scale.

I think most of the masses get caught up in these media buzz words - black/white/catholic/jew/muslim/man/woman/liberal/conservative/etc. People rep their own team, refuse to acknowledge valid views of another group, and therefore put the brakes on any progress.

Maybe I'm reaching here, however It seems to me that there is a divide and conquer type of strategy which those in power use to keep the masses in check. As long as you keep people busy with random bullshit, they're gonna maintain the status quo.

A people divided and confused go nowhere.
 

dahkter

Ill Muzikoligist
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 4
Total government transparency, no secrets. If they are doing our bidding we should know exactly everything they are doing
to spend our hard earned money.

Agreed - for the people, by the people. If people had one tenth of the interest in the actions of their government instead of American Idol, there would be some definite progress being made in the World.
 
I think most of the masses get caught up in these media buzz words - black/white/catholic/jew/muslim/man/woman/liberal/conservative/etc. People rep their own team, refuse to acknowledge valid views of another group, and therefore put the brakes on any progress.

Maybe I'm reaching here, however It seems to me that there is a divide and conquer type of strategy which those in power use to keep the masses in check. As long as you keep people busy with random bullshit, they're gonna maintain the status quo.

A people divided and confused go nowhere.

Yep that is exactly right.
The "elite" have studied long and hard(documented), trying to find out how to subversivly manipulate us without force due to the elites very small numbers compared to the masses..
Hence we have subliminal messages, Prozac(derived through the MK Ultra experiments).
They know full well that humans are tribal by nature, they are proud of where they are from and defend home.
They know how to drive a wedge between people, (the current christian/muslim bullshit for example).
They make the other out to be a threat to your way of life and know you will react to your inbuilt tribalism to defend home. The human nature is very complicated, and they really know how to use it to their advantage, they have been studying for hundreds of years.
 

Relic

Voice of Illmuzik Radio
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 83
I just would be careful confusing "a different elite" with a better or worse infrastructure. I'm not advocating a total overthrow, more of a correction. The woman's suffragist moevement, the civil rights movement, child labor laws, the end of apartheid, all of these movements were possible due to a loud minority speaking up and rocking the boat.

If governments are actively harming the masses, it's the duty of the people to step up and work to create change.

Those are all good examples that have done some good but havent exactly resolved the problems. In fact they have created different ones!
Dont get me wrong I support all those movements.

If governments are harming the masses(which they are) they should be overthrown, but in doing so it creates the same problem again eventually.
Look at here in the US the Brits got pushed out (sorry 2Good) for shit like stamp taxes right?
Look how much a damn stamp costs now adays!! And buy now because if you blink they are gonna raise the price again.

Agreed - for the people, by the people. If people had one tenth of the interest in the actions of their government instead of American Idol, there would be some definite progress being made in the World.

And thats well said! lol
 

dahkter

Ill Muzikoligist
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 4
If governments are harming the masses(which they are) they should be overthrown, but in doing so it creates the same problem again eventually.

Just look out though, overthrow and change are two different things. I do agree with many of you that believe that when a government is overthrown that the outcome is usually that an equal or worse government takes it's place.

That's why I advocate some corrections at the top. That's why we have the ability to ammend the constitution (at least here in the U.S.). Of course the current administration has basically wiped their asses with the constitution, however I still feel it's crucial that people fight the good fight to create change and improvement.
 
Just look out though, overthrow and change are two different things. I do agree with many of you that believe that when a government is overthrown that the outcome is usually that an equal or worse government takes it's place.

That's why I advocate some corrections at the top. That's why we have the ability to ammend the constitution (at least here in the U.S.). Of course the current administration has basically wiped their asses with the constitution, however I still feel it's crucial that people fight the good fight to create change and improvement.
Yeah I agree, it takes the magna carta and runs with it. 2 great documents for individual freedoms.
 

divineaspex

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Reminds me of the movie "requiem for a dream"........people would rather drink alcohol and do drugs, dreaming about what they could do, than actually trying to make things happen
 

The Mastermind

This Illuminati Be Illin'
ill o.g.
Hati is good example of that. Sure there arent french slave holders there, and thats good, but the conditions there still suck for the majority while a small faction will always be living it up.
Which brings us to international affairs. The history of Haiti is an interesting one.

"Haiti was more than the New World's second oldest republic," anthropologist Ira Lowenthal observed, "more than even the first black republic of the modern world. Haiti was the first free nation of free men to arise within, and in resistance to, the emerging constellation of Western European empire." ...

The Republic of Haiti was established on January 1, 1804, after a slave revolt expelled the French colonial rulers and their allies... The descendants of the original inhabitants could not celebrate the liberation. They had been reduced to a few hundred within 50 years from a pre-Colombian population estimated variously from hundreds of thousands to 8 million, with none remaining at all...

Between 1849 and 1913, US Navy ships entered Haitian waters 24 times to "protect American lives and property." Haiti's independence was scarcely given even "token recognition," Schmidt observes in his standard history, and there was little consideration for the rights of its people. They are "an inferior people," unable "to maintain the degree of civilization left them by the French or to develop any capacity of self government entitling them to international respect and confidence."

Year 501 by Noam Chomsky
http://www.cyberspacei.com/jesusi/authors/chomsky/year/y501_008.htm

I don't believe we have exhausted all of the options for the organisation of our societies. The advances that have been made for women, non-whites, poor folk or anyone else who was getting crapped on in history have been fought for. And of course resisted by elites.

The people ain't finished with them yet, I bet.
 

God

Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
That sounds defeatist. Anyone who gives a damn should always bear in mind that the system can be improved incrementally or in a sudden and dramatic fashion.

I understand plenty about political systems, the international order and the consequences of change. I have studied it in detail and recieved top marks in tertiary institutes doing so.

Tax is not necessarily my major problem with western governments at present. My concerns are greater than my money.

What do you think, that Public Enemy and KRS-1 should record love songs?

By surrounding the terms "subversion" and "rebellion" with "bullshit" and "crap" doesn't make it so. Tell it to the Jews in WWII or Martin Luther King or Malcolm X or the Timorese when they were annexed by Indonesia or the Haitian rebel slaves who fought for their rights. Hell, tell it to the people who fought for the right to trial and an end to arbitrary detention.

Look if you're comfy in your bed and don't want the boat rocked, that's fine. But you can't tell informed or marginalised people to to forget about the problems because after the change someone else will always exploit them. That's not the truth and it's not a valid argument.

Blowing this up to the extent of the Jews in WWII or MLK is a different story. You're redefining the argument through a logical fallacy to try to support your point. Both the Holocaust and oppression of minorities is WRONG.


It's nice that you're idealistic. I just think you'll probably see things a different way as you get older. You'll realize that you should try to make your own life better because that's something that you can at least try to control.

I'm not "comfy" in my bed. I actually went out and did shit that everyone said was "impossible" instead of chatting about changing my life on a messageboard. You know in GTA Vice City when they have a fake ad on the radio: "Think about changing your life instead of actually getting off the couch and doing it."

The reality is that human nature takes over, even for people in power. If you were in power, I bet you wouldn't be as "benevolent" as you think you'd be. You would fall into the trappings - if not immediately then eventually. You would probably take advantage of shit like any other cat that's given power. If you give me some BS idealistic comment I have thousands of years of proof of leaders given power that take advantage of it. Life isn't perfect, man.

Communism was a great idea in theory

Fully disagree. If I can contribute to society and get paid a large amount for it - why should I have to give it away to subsidize the lives of others and have my investments stolen from me? It would motivate me NOT to work. I think people are unequal because life is generally a bitch and people may never be given a fair shot - and that's a fact of life.

Should people be given an opportunity for a level playing field? YES. But after that, it's the craftiest cat that should win.

I wouldn't do shit if I was guaranteed a paycheck, or do the least amount of work. Oh wait, that's what actually happened to the fucks that ran Communist regimes. It's a stupid system because it doesn't appeal to a core function of human nature: self-interest.
 

The Mastermind

This Illuminati Be Illin'
ill o.g.
It's nice that you're idealistic. I just think you'll probably see things a different way as you get older. You'll realize that you should try to make your own life better because that's something that you can at least try to control.

I'm not "comfy" in my bed. I actually went out and did shit that everyone said was "impossible" instead of chatting about changing my life on a messageboard. You know in GTA Vice City when they have a fake ad on the radio: "Think about changing your life instead of actually getting off the couch and doing it."

Good for you God, I admire your success.

I don't know what GTA Vice City is.

I'm 38. I'm not sure about your assertion that I will grow up and see the world through your eyes.

The big straw man in your argument, that you keep coming back to, is that people who question the system sit around feeling defeated and doing nothing to better their lives. It's a central tenet to your argument. It's not a reality. Your reasoning that questioning the powers that be brings about a sort of lifestyle paralysis doesn't hold up.

Some of your comments seem underpinned with an assumption that that is how I live. Your arguments would be stronger if you avoided assumptions about people you don't know.

Drawing in MLK and WWII as an example in an argument that says put up with your rulers because someone will always kick you aournd is not a logical fallacy. It's an illustration that sometimes systems need to be resisted. It puts to bed the idea that people should always follow. It sets up the reality that each social system needs to be justified for what it is. Thus, if your system is good and just and not deserving change then state that, rather than saying put up with your rulers, someone will always shit on you.

You acknowledged the need for MLK to fight, yet his battles weren't over when he died. He had his sights firmly set on US militarism and spoke passionately against it.

I would argue that there are urgent reasons, as urgent as during WWII, for Western governments to be radically reformed. Mostly in the realm of foreign policy. As I see it, Western societies are involved in major aggressive actions at the moment. Especially in the third world. For myself, it is a priority to raise awareness and help to stop it. There is also the issue of some major rights being removed and / or watered down considerably. The right to arrest and trial being one among many.

Agianst the idea that we have always had cruel rulers I would say there has also been a long history of struggle with power being removed, bit by bit, from those at the top to be replaced by common rights, citizen control and transperancy. Do you believe the need for that is over?

The belief in competition as a mode of organisation for society is an Amercian one, shared to a lesser extent by some other nations, mine included. You have your right to that, all societies have the right to choose how they organise. However, most of our advances, both technological and social, have been a result of humans cooperating and working together.

That self interest is at the our core of human nature is an idelogical construction of humanity. It's a construction that supports the ideology of competition. The competition ideology has a certain dominance at the moment but will eventually fade. No proof can be offered to the assertion, other than that competiton and conflict occur sometimes. But so does cooperation, assistance and aid. I would say it depends on the individual and there are no broad rules about what motivates people.

I don't work to get rich or powerful, I never have and I never will. It does not motivate me. I live comforatbly and support a family of five on my income. On top of that I find time to pursue and hone my skills in various artistic spheres. It's not about money, it's about me becoming a better person and the world becoming a better place.
 
The belief in competition as a mode of organisation for society is an Amercian one, shared to a lesser extent by some other nations, mine included. You have your right to that, all societies have the right to choose how they organise. However, most of our advances, both technological and social, have been a result of humans cooperating and working together.

That self interest is at the our core of human nature is an idelogical construction of humanity. It's a construction that supports the ideology of competition. The competition ideology has a certain dominance at the moment but will eventually fade. No proof can be offered to the assertion, other than that competiton and conflict occur sometimes. But so does cooperation, assistance and aid. I would say it depends on the individual and there are no broad rules about what motivates people.

I don't work to get rich or powerful, I never have and I never will. It does not motivate me. I live comforatbly and support a family of five on my income. On top of that I find time to pursue and hone my skills in various artistic spheres. It's not about money, it's about me becoming a better person and the world becoming a better place.

Personally I think the whole competetion thing is a result of Darwinism, "Survival of The Fittest".
We have been brainwashed into being selfish as a result.
History shows that no matter how good an ideal, it always gets hijacked. No matter the revolution, the elite maintain control. The very act of revolution has always been to create the illusion that the people are now free, when in fact they are actually not. The USA is the greastest example, as they follow the path to tyranny as we speak.
As you very well point out, the struggle for freedom has gone on for as long as there are those that seek to dominate us. Its a fight that the good guys have let their guard down for, and as a result the long fought after freedoms we have gained are now being overturned. It takes a few good men to keep that dream alive, no matter the tyranny we find ourselves living under. Those are humanities true heroes, those that seek to make the world a better place for everyone, not just their selfish selves.
Its okay winning, and gaining human rights, but you can NEVER go to sleep, and lose the hard fought ground that was won.
Im disheartened by the attitude of most people to this stuff, I feel like I really Im helpless against such unfair odds. And while I have no means with which to get my message across, I will wait until Im in a position that I can. I will never give up the cause for freedom and human rights, if my ancestors had given up then I wouldnt be able to enjoy the very freedoms I was lucky enough born into here in the UK.
 

God

Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
Good for you God, I admire your success.

I don't know what GTA Vice City is.

I'm 38. I'm not sure about your assertion that I will grow up and see the world through your eyes.

The big straw man in your argument, that you keep coming back to, is that people who question the system sit around feeling defeated and doing nothing to better their lives. It's a central tenet to your argument. It's not a reality. Your reasoning that questioning the powers that be brings about a sort of lifestyle paralysis doesn't hold up.

Some of your comments seem underpinned with an assumption that that is how I live. Your arguments would be stronger if you avoided assumptions about people you don't know.

Drawing in MLK and WWII as an example in an argument that says put up with your rulers because someone will always kick you aournd is not a logical fallacy. It's an illustration that sometimes systems need to be resisted. It puts to bed the idea that people should always follow. It sets up the reality that each social system needs to be justified for what it is. Thus, if your system is good and just and not deserving change then state that, rather than saying put up with your rulers, someone will always shit on you.

You acknowledged the need for MLK to fight, yet his battles weren't over when he died. He had his sights firmly set on US militarism and spoke passionately against it.

I would argue that there are urgent reasons, as urgent as during WWII, for Western governments to be radically reformed. Mostly in the realm of foreign policy. As I see it, Western societies are involved in major aggressive actions at the moment. Especially in the third world. For myself, it is a priority to raise awareness and help to stop it. There is also the issue of some major rights being removed and / or watered down considerably. The right to arrest and trial being one among many.

Agianst the idea that we have always had cruel rulers I would say there has also been a long history of struggle with power being removed, bit by bit, from those at the top to be replaced by common rights, citizen control and transperancy. Do you believe the need for that is over?

The belief in competition as a mode of organisation for society is an Amercian one, shared to a lesser extent by some other nations, mine included. You have your right to that, all societies have the right to choose how they organise. However, most of our advances, both technological and social, have been a result of humans cooperating and working together.

That self interest is at the our core of human nature is an idelogical construction of humanity. It's a construction that supports the ideology of competition. The competition ideology has a certain dominance at the moment but will eventually fade. No proof can be offered to the assertion, other than that competiton and conflict occur sometimes. But so does cooperation, assistance and aid. I would say it depends on the individual and there are no broad rules about what motivates people.

I don't work to get rich or powerful, I never have and I never will. It does not motivate me. I live comforatbly and support a family of five on my income. On top of that I find time to pursue and hone my skills in various artistic spheres. It's not about money, it's about me becoming a better person and the world becoming a better place.

Let me guess you got a Master's or PhD in some social science. Dude, open your eyes, you know the competing interests that are at stake.

Why don't you get off pontificating on a fucking messageboard and make a non-profit group or some shit. Or if you're involved in one - why don't you fucking do shit for them (I assume LEGAL shit.)

Live in your Disneyland man, I've just seen a lot of shit and am really cynical about stuff.

If you come to power, shit, you'll probably end up oppressing someone like me because I'm not "on your side."

So much for equality, right?

Personally I think the whole competetion thing is a result of Darwinism, "Survival of The Fittest".
We have been brainwashed into being selfish as a result.
History shows that no matter how good an ideal, it always gets hijacked. No matter the revolution, the elite maintain control. The very act of revolution has always been to create the illusion that the people are now free, when in fact they are actually not. The USA is the greastest example, as they follow the path to tyranny as we speak.
As you very well point out, the struggle for freedom has gone on for as long as there are those that seek to dominate us. Its a fight that the good guys have let their guard down for, and as a result the long fought after freedoms we have gained are now being overturned. It takes a few good men to keep that dream alive, no matter the tyranny we find ourselves living under. Those are humanities true heroes, those that seek to make the world a better place for everyone, not just their selfish selves.
Its okay winning, and gaining human rights, but you can NEVER go to sleep, and lose the hard fought ground that was won.
Im disheartened by the attitude of most people to this stuff, I feel like I really Im helpless against such unfair odds. And while I have no means with which to get my message across, I will wait until Im in a position that I can. I will never give up the cause for freedom and human rights, if my ancestors had given up then I wouldnt be able to enjoy the very freedoms I was lucky enough born into here in the UK.

Define your preferred system of government 2good. Mine is the one that rewards hustle.

Anyway, enough of this political bullshit, I'll get back to the music stuff.
 
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