The Great Debate

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MarkN

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 55
I think it's removed by the essence of hiphop when you look at the motivation. The motivation used to be.. the love for music. And the way you express that music isn't even the case. People would sample if that's your expression, or use synths if that's their expression..

It's all good.. It's still for the love of music..

The change is in this, all these young dudes are talking bout "Hell, I'm not gonna sample, I need to make money and i won't pay for clearances" Their motivation is getting rich with music and not the love of music....

The motivation is key in the change of hiphop.

yea thats a good point which is going to lead me to post up 'the great debate part 2' lol
 

shadeed

Go Digital or Go Home
ill o.g.
Good topic.

Hip Hop is not only music, it's an entire culture comprised of style of dress, slang, music and of course those elements. - Rapping is something you do - hip hop is something you are.

There is no such thing as "real hip hop" vs. "rap" music. It's all rap music. The term real hip hop started in the 90's when certain artists (Hammer, Vanilla Ice etc.) started having pop success using a hip hop formula. The Das Efx, Gangstarrs, Native Tounges, Third Bass (and so on) had to differentiate themselves.

What this generation of hip hop kids misses out on is that when hip hop first started there were more b-boys and graf writers as there are rappers today.

Back then, you couldn't be a rapper unless you had a certain skill about yourself, because the MC would keep the party going - if you couldn't rock the crowd, then the DJ (who is the catalyst of it all) wouldn't let you get on.

When corporations came into the mix - they pushed the MC to the forefront, because it was the most profitable thing to do - so now you don't have the break crews and graf crews.

Style Wars documentary is probably the best representation of the graf movement caught on film. It also features a young DJ Kay Slay as well.

The use of samples was born more out of necessity than trying to maintain a sacred hip hop tradition. Many of your early DJ's couldn't afford instruments so that made it work with what was available. Looping two records together was done so that the Breakdown section of the record was longer so that the Break-Boys (B-Boys) can get busy and do their thing for longer periods of time.
With the affordability of multitrack recorders these days, mp3's and many other gizmos and gadgets, today's producer doesn't have to re-invent any type of technique like our forefathers had to: But that doesn't make them More of less "hip hop" than a Grandmaster Flash or Kool Herc.
 

Ozmosis

Sound Tight Productions
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 201
Good topic.

Hip Hop is not only music, it's an entire culture comprised of style of dress, slang, music and of course those elements. - Rapping is something you do - hip hop is something you are.

There is no such thing as "real hip hop" vs. "rap" music. It's all rap music. The term real hip hop started in the 90's when certain artists (Hammer, Vanilla Ice etc.) started having pop success using a hip hop formula. The Das Efx, Gangstarrs, Native Tounges, Third Bass (and so on) had to differentiate themselves.

What this generation of hip hop kids misses out on is that when hip hop first started there were more b-boys and graf writers as there are rappers today.

Back then, you couldn't be a rapper unless you had a certain skill about yourself, because the MC would keep the party going - if you couldn't rock the crowd, then the DJ (who is the catalyst of it all) wouldn't let you get on.

When corporations came into the mix - they pushed the MC to the forefront, because it was the most profitable thing to do - so now you don't have the break crews and graf crews.

Style Wars documentary is probably the best representation of the graf movement caught on film. It also features a young DJ Kay Slay as well.

The use of samples was born more out of necessity than trying to maintain a sacred hip hop tradition. Many of your early DJ's couldn't afford instruments so that made it work with what was available. Looping two records together was done so that the Breakdown section of the record was longer so that the Break-Boys (B-Boys) can get busy and do their thing for longer periods of time.
With the affordability of multitrack recorders these days, mp3's and many other gizmos and gadgets, today's producer doesn't have to re-invent any type of technique like our forefathers had to: But that doesn't make them More of less "hip hop" than a Grandmaster Flash or Kool Herc.

Looks like Shadeed just wrote the conclusion for your paper MarkN. LOL
 

Sincock

Fucking Wankers
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 8
lol, I hate to disagree with you , but blues also came from church music.

In fact ragtime is a form of jazz which is decended from classical!!
Black folks know how to take a music and flip it up and give it soul!!!
(sorta like sampling lol)

Ah, I know it's off topic and you can erase this if you want but...

c'mon blues did most definitely not come from church music unless you consider the pre-christian religion of black slaves that arrived in America to be a church, anyway let's not argue over semantics. By "Church" I presume you mean a Christian church. The blues is older than black slaves forced conversion to Christianity. Gospel, Soul etc came from the blues.

Ragtime was a prototypical Jazz, it came before Jazz and yes it was influenced by classical music and the blues.
 

Kontents

I like Gearslutz
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 5
In reference of the above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues

Do Ctrl+F and type church.


Music such as this was called "gut-bucket" blues, a term which refers to a type of homemade bass instrument made from a metal bucket used to clean pig intestines for chitterlings (a soul food dish associated with slavery). "Gut-bucket" blues songs are typically "low-down" and earthy, about rocky or steamy man-woman relationships, hard luck and hard times. Gut-bucket blues and the rowdy juke-joint venues where it was played, earned blues music an unsavory reputation; church-goers shunned it and some preachers railed against it.

didn't know that..
 

LDB

Banned
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 73
Putting the B.S to rest...Church means Religion or Spirituality

Stop assuming and twisting the truth....it all came from church and church just means Religion or Spirituals (old negro ones at that)....it is what it is.



Historical spirituals

Negro Spirituals were often expressions of religious faith, although they may also have served as socio-politicalprotests veiled as assimilation to white American culture. They were originated by enslaved African-Americans in the United States. Slavery was introduced to the European colonies in 1619, and enslaved people largely replaced indentured servants as an economic labor force during the 17th century. This labor force would remain in bondage for the entire 18th century and much of the 19th century. They were released with the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution by United States Secretary of State William Henry Seward on December 18, 1865. The Amendment was passed by Congress January 31, 1865, and was ratified by 27 of the then 36 states.
During slavery in the United States, there were systematic efforts to de-Africanize the captive Black workforce. Enslaved people were forbidden from speaking their native languages.
It was not long before further restrictions were placed on the religious expression of slaves. Rows of benches in places of worship discouraged congregants from spontaneously jumping to their feet and dancing. The use of musical instruments of any kind often was forbidden, and slaves were ordered to desist from the "paganism" of the practice of spiritual possession. Nonetheless, the Christian principles that teach those who suffer on earth hold a special place with God in heaven undoubtedly spoke to the enslaved who saw this as hope and could certainly relate to the suffering of Jesus. For this reason many slaves genuinely embraced Christianity.
Because they were unable to express themselves freely in ways that were spiritually meaningful to them, enslaved Africans often held secret religious services. During these “bush meetings,” worshippers were free to engage in African religious rituals such as spiritual possession, speaking in tongues and shuffling in counterclockwise ring shouts to communal shouts and chants. It was there also that enslaved Africans further crafted the impromptu musical expression of field songs into the so-called "line signing" and intricate, multi-part harmonies of struggle and overcoming, faith, forbearance and hope that have come to be known as "Black Spirituals."
While slaveowners used Christianity to teach enslaved Africans to be long-suffering, forgiving and obedient to their masters, as practiced by the enslaved, it became something of a liberation theology. The story of Moses and The Exodus of the "children of Israel" and the idea of an Old Testament God who struck down the enemies of His "chosen people" resonated deeply with the enslaved ("He's a battleaxe in time of war and a shelter in a time of storm"). In Black hands and hearts, Christian theology became an instrument of liberation.
So, too, in many instances did the spirituals themselves. Spirituals sometimes provided comfort and eased the boredom of daily tasks, but above all, they were an expression of spiritual devotion and a yearning for freedom from bondage. Songs like "Steal Away (to Jesus)", or "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" raised unexpectedly in a dusty field, or sung softly in the dark of night, signalled that the coast was clear and the time to escape had come. The River Jordan became the Ohio River, or the Mississippi, or another body of water that had to be crossed on the journey to freedom. “Wade in the Water” contained explicit instructions to fugitive slaves on how to avoid capture and the route to take to successfully make their way to freedom. Leaving dry land and taking to the water was a common strategy to throw pursuing bloodhounds off one's trail. “The Gospel Train”, and “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot” all contained veiled references to the Underground Railroad, and Follow the Drinking Gourd contained a coded map to the Underground Railroad. The title itself was an Africanized reference to the Big Dipper, which pointed the way to the North Star and freedom in Canada.
In the 1850s, Reverend Alexander Reid, superintendent of the Spencer Academy in the old Choctaw Nation, hired some enslaved Africans from the Indians for some work around the school. He heard two of them, "Uncle Wallace" and "Aunt Minerva" Willis, singing religious songs they had composed. Among these songs were Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, Steal Away to Jesus, The Angels are Coming, I'm a Rolling, and Roll Jordan Roll. Later, Reid, who left Indian Territory at the beginning of the Civil War, attended a musical program put on by a group of Negro singers from Fisk University. Although they were singing mostly popular music of the day, Reid thought the songs he remembered from his time in the Choctaw Nation would be appropriate. He and his wife transcribed the songs of the Willises as they remembered them and sent them to Fisk University. The Jubilee Singers put on their first performance singing the old captive's songs at a religious conference in 1871. The songs were first published in 1872 in a book titled Jubilee Songs as Sung by the Jubilee Singers of Fisk University, by Thomas F. Steward. Later these religious songs became known as "Black spirituals" to distinguish this music from the spiritual music of other peoples. Wallace Willis died in 1883 or 84.


By 1808 the Atlantic slave trade had brought almost half a million Africans to the United States. The slaves largely came from West Africa and brought strong tribal musical traditions with them. Lavish festivals featuring African dances to drums were organized on Sundays at Place Congo, or Congo Square, in New Orleans until 1843, as were similar gatherings in New England and New York. African music was largely functional, for work or ritual, and included work songs and field hollers. In the African tradition, they had a single-line melody and a call-and-response pattern, but without the European concept of harmony. Rhythms reflected African speech patterns, and the African use of pentatonic scales led to blue notes in blues and jazz.


In the early 19th century an increasing number of black musicians learned to play European instruments, particularly the violin, which they used to parody European dance music in their own cakewalk dances. In turn, European-American minstrel show performers in blackface popularized such music internationally, combining syncopation with European harmonic accompaniment. Louis Moreau Gottschalk adapted African-American cakewalk music, South American, Caribbean and other slave melodies as piano salon music. Another influence came from black slaves who had learned the harmonic style of hymns and incorporated it into their own music as spirituals.[5] The origins of the blues are undocumented, though they can be seen as the secular counterpart of the spirituals. Paul Oliver has drawn attention to similarities in instruments, music and social function to the griots of the West African savannah.


History of the blues genres
Origins



Blues has evolved from an unaccompanied vocal music and oral traditions of African-American slaves and rural blacks into a wide variety of styles and subgenres, with regional variations across the United States and, later, Europe and Africa. The musical forms and styles that are now considered the "blues" as well as modern "country music" arose in the same regions during the nineteenth century in the southern United States. Recorded blues and country can be found from as far back as the 1920s, when the popular record industry developed and created marketing categories called "race music" and "hillbilly music" to sell music by blacks for blacks and by whites for whites, respectively.
At the time, there was no clear musical division between "blues" and "country," except for the ethnicity of the performer, and even that sometimes was documented incorrectly by record companies. Studies have situated the origin of black spirituals inside slaves' exposure to their white Hebridean-originated gospels. African-American economist and historian Thomas Sowell also notes that the southern, black, ex-slave population was acculturated to a considerable degree by and among their Scots-Irish "redneck" neighbours. However, the findings of Kubik and others also clearly attest to the essential Africanness of many essential aspects of blues expression.
The social and economic reasons for the appearance of the blues are not fully known. The first appearance of the blues is not well defined and is often dated between 1870 and 1900, a period that coincides with Emancipation and the transition from slavery to sharecropping, small-scale agricultural production and the expansion of railroads in the southern United States.
Several scholars characterize the early 1900s development of blues music as a move from group performances to a more individualized style. They argue that the development of the blues is associated with the newly acquired freedom of the enslaved people. According to Lawrence Levine,[24] "there was a direct relationship between the national ideological emphasis upon the individual, the popularity of Booker T. Washington's teachings, and the rise of the blues." Levine states that "psychologically, socially, and economically, Negroes were being acculturated in a way that would have been impossible during slavery, and it is hardly surprising that their secular music reflected this as much as their religious music did."
 

manguino

Pressure Makes Diamonds
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 7
The blues is older than black slaves forced conversion to Christianity. Gospel, Soul etc came from the blues.

Had to bust out my old thesis from college for this lol:

In the 1820s America experienced a Second Great Awakening which was like a Christian revival movement (Stearns 79). The re-iteration of Calvinism gave people new hope which created more emotion among poor blacks in the South during Church services. Church services would be full of religious hysteria and hymns would be more emotional. Because many of the poor blacks could not read, hymns were memorized and sung in an improvisational style. These African-Americans were singing European hymns but they were not singing in unison (Stearns 97), but in a more soulful manner. This was yet another mixture of African and European influences. The Blues was started in the late 19th century and was mostly sung and played in the Mississippi Delta. This music was very emotional and almost always involved the call and response, which was used on cotton fields and during Church services. The blues were full of heart and the troubles of a persons life. It was a form of expression that used a very European harmony but blended African call and response (Stearns 123) as well as soulful rhythm. It became much more popular in 1900s when people started performing it in theaters and public forums. The publics interest in this mixture of European harmony and African call and response certainly was a factor in Jazz's emergence in the 1920s.

Sources:
Peretti, Burton. Jazz in American Culture. Chicago: Ivan R. Dee Inc., 1997.
Berendt, Erns. The Jazz Book: From Ragtime to Fusion and Beyond. Brooklyn: Lawrence Hill Books, 1992.
Gioia, Ted. The History of Jazz. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc., 1997.
Stearns, Marshall . The Story of Jazz. New York: Oxford University Press, 1958.
 

LDB

Banned
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 73
For Those That Don't Know!

The use of the word "church" can be slang in the black community for "Religion or being "spritual" in nature. It's word play...either you know the lingo or you don't. The bottom line is that Blues was not the starting point..religious/spiritual/ritual music was which all means the same to black folk "CHURCH". Check the time lines and you can plainly see when certain spin offs of the genres came into play.

I don't know why some people try to distort history with his-story.
 

Sincock

Fucking Wankers
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 8
Geez, people getting all worked up about not much. No ones trying to distort history or turn it into "his-story", whatever that's supposed to mean.If "Black" people mean religion or spirituality of any sort by saying church then that's fine. As I said I had assumed that church meant christianity. Not a big deal children. Like I said I don't want to make this an argument over semantics. If that's what was meant then I don't dispute your statement. Please consider in the future that not all of us here are black or even American so don't assume we will all immediately know what you mean when you use a word differently from the generally accepted usage and/or meaning.

Stop assuming and twisting the truth....it all came from church and church just means Religion or Spirituals (old negro ones at that)....it is what it is.



By 1808 the Atlantic slave trade had brought almost half a million Africans to the United States. The slaves largely came from West Africa and brought strong tribal musical traditions with them. Lavish festivals featuring African dances to drums were organized on Sundays at Place Congo, or Congo Square, in New Orleans until 1843, as were similar gatherings in New England and New York. African music was largely functional, for work or ritual, and included work songs and field hollers. In the African tradition, they had a single-line melody and a call-and-response pattern, but without the European concept of harmony. Rhythms reflected African speech patterns, and the African use of pentatonic scales led to blue notes in blues and jazz.


In the early 19th century an increasing number of black musicians learned to play European instruments, particularly the violin, which they used to parody European dance music in their own cakewalk dances. In turn, European-American minstrel show performers in blackface popularized such music internationally, combining syncopation with European harmonic accompaniment. Louis Moreau Gottschalk adapted African-American cakewalk music, South American, Caribbean and other slave melodies as piano salon music. Another influence came from black slaves who had learned the harmonic style of hymns and incorporated it into their own music as spirituals.[5] The origins of the blues are undocumented, though they can be seen as the secular counterpart of the spirituals. Paul Oliver has drawn attention to similarities in instruments, music and social function to the griots of the West African savannah.

So it came from Africa like I said. By the way the above text says blues were a secular counterpart to spirituals. Secular means non-religious for those of you who don't know.


History of the blues genres
Origins



Blues has evolved from an unaccompanied vocal music and oral traditions of African-American slaves and rural blacks into a wide variety of styles and subgenres, with regional variations across the United States and, later, Europe and Africa. The musical forms and styles that are now considered the "blues" as well as modern "country music" arose in the same regions during the nineteenth century in the southern United States. Recorded blues and country can be found from as far back as the 1920s, when the popular record industry developed and created marketing categories called "race music" and "hillbilly music" to sell music by blacks for blacks and by whites for whites, respectively.
At the time, there was no clear musical division between "blues" and "country," except for the ethnicity of the performer, and even that sometimes was documented incorrectly by record companies. Studies have situated the origin of black spirituals inside slaves' exposure to their white Hebridean-originated gospels. African-American economist and historian Thomas Sowell also notes that the southern, black, ex-slave population was acculturated to a considerable degree by and among their Scots-Irish "redneck" neighbours. However, the findings of Kubik and others also clearly attest to the essential Africanness of many essential aspects of blues expression.
The social and economic reasons for the appearance of the blues are not fully known. The first appearance of the blues is not well defined and is often dated between 1870 and 1900, a period that coincides with Emancipation and the transition from slavery to sharecropping, small-scale agricultural production and the expansion of railroads in the southern United States.
Several scholars characterize the early 1900s development of blues music as a move from group performances to a more individualized style. They argue that the development of the blues is associated with the newly acquired freedom of the enslaved people. According to Lawrence Levine,[24] "there was a direct relationship between the national ideological emphasis upon the individual, the popularity of Booker T. Washington's teachings, and the rise of the blues." Levine states that "psychologically, socially, and economically, Negroes were being acculturated in a way that would have been impossible during slavery, and it is hardly surprising that their secular music reflected this as much as their religious music did."

I don't know if you read what you posted but this is a very detailed and well researched history of the blues that completely supports what I said. If you have ever heard some West African traditional music, in particular griots, then you will have a much better understanding of where the blues really came from.

I don't know why particular people on this forum feel a need to get worked up every time I post an opinion but you need to chill the fuck out and read what I wrote before going off half cocked.

Edit: Manguino, what you wrote is interesting. If that is the case then it would seem that aspects of the blues were influenced by church hymns. I had always believed the blues was much older and that it evolved into the form we are familiar with in the 18th century.
 
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