Tell Me - Is Sonar capable of competing with ProTools?

[BeatOff]

Quit bragging I"ve never even heard of you. You're not some big shot platinum producer you're an arrogant chicken head with Un Original beats. You even got a song trying to sing like pharell you fuckin biter. Stop acting like you went platinum because you sold a couple beats to some wack ass miami rappers. You took some engineering school and you think you are a know it all when you say the dumbest shit i've ever read on any site. I cant take you serious. For a "Professional" you sure do sound dumb as a rock. "Hataz this hataz that" is that the first defense bird headed gimps use.? "I'm a professional, You're an amature" LOL yeah aiight Big time producer.

 

[vitaminman]

Deuce,

You don't need PT to do any of that stuff, you can group tracks and use Waves plugins in any software, including Sonar.

You shouldn't have to export wav files from Reason with either PT or Sonar, both of the current versions support Rewire, which allows you run Reason as a plugin.

Mucka,

No one is arguing that PT is a good system...if it were a bad system, people wouldn't be using it.

But you still haven't explained why Pro Tools is inherently better than any other system out there. We all know that a lot of studios use it, I don't think that anyone will dispute this. What many people are interested in (including myself) are the features of the software that make it better than Sonar.

If the coin were flipped and studios used Sonar instead of PT, would you be using Sonar instead?

So far you've mentioned a lot of hardware which big studios use, like big consoles and processors, but these have nothing to do with PT. And it seems that when this stuff is used in conjunction with PT, it is used only as a glorified tape recorder. People have been able to dump audio back and forth between tape and a computer with tons of programs for a long time now, it's nothing complicated.

Of course an engineer won't trade up his PT system for something like Sonar! If he's invested thousands of dollars and hours in a system which he likes and gets good results with, why should he take a loss in his investment? I've invested lots of hours and thousands dollars into my Cubase system, I wouldn't trade it for anything else either!

I don't understand the argument that people use systems based on their price to achieve professional results: both Nuendo and Logic are relatively cheap compared to PT (around $1000 or less), and they offer the benefit of allowing people to use the audio interface of their choice. If people aren't using PT 'cuz they broke', shouldn't this include the Logic and Nuendo users?

You're mistaken if you believe that pro's use only Pro Tools, you only have to go to any website of any manufacturer to see the list of artists and producers who use programs like Cubase and Sonar (among others). And these aren't little guys with a hit or two; we're talking about guys who have been making records longer than we've been alive.

Everyone:

What makes a 'pro' or a 'rookie'? The software they use, or the music they make?

Take care,

Nick

 

[Shonsteez]

All good points Vitamin...
And thanks for pointing out that its capable of being used with tha rewire gig...Im gonna try this out after class tomarrow evening...Ill add to tha thread how it goes down.



Steeze

 

[Shonsteez]

Ok i jus tried it and rewire iz actually quite easy to set up and self explanitory considering i didnt read anything before i set it up...
Though i did have one noticable problem - - - - - -I kept getting a really annoying clipping or popping/crackling while streaming tha track nsync with sonar. Does thatmaybe mean my CPU iz gettin overheated or some shiznit?

 

[vitaminman]

Hey,

My guess would be that maybe the buffers in your soundcard are too low and the card is not capable of keeping up with all the information being passed to it at that speed. You could try increasing the buffer size...the disadvantage of this is that latency will increase.

Take care,

Nick

 

[Fade]

themucka, what's got people heated on this topic is not because you're saying that Pro Tools is better, but because you're saying that it's your opinion so it MUST be the truth. No one else's opinions matter. Whatever themucka says is what everyone should know because themucka's words are the only true words on this planet.

Basically, you're coming across arrogant and that's what pissing people off. Saying you're a pro and we're all rookies, that's a big thing to say! I'm not going to argue with you about both PT and Sonar but just lay off the whole ego trip please. Just because you record in "pro" studios and use all sorts of "pro" gear doesn't mean that's what everyone else on here should do.

 

[themucka]

i'm sorry if i offended anybody.... but i was refereing 2 beat off.. with that comment...(pro n rookie) sorry i did not specify...

@vitamin... here are the resons people use PRO TOOLS... OVER ANYBODY ELSE
i'm not a spec guy... ima hands on person... so i prooly wont be as elaborate as you would like...

THIS IS FOR REAL PRO TOOLS USER... NOT 001- 002

1.but. the 1st reason... no latency...... none...
2.farm cards.. takes all the work off your cpu.... non pro tools user... can'T use as many strong quality plug-ins... TPRO TOOLSQUALITY IS TIGHTER... MORE REAL...
TRY RUNNING 16 RENAINCE COMPRESSOR... WITH AN ALTIVERB.. AND 5 RENAICE RVB... AND HAVE EVERYTHING PLAYBACK SMOOTH... WONT HAPPEN WITH SONAR...
4... THE INTERFACE.... THERE STAND ALONE... 888... TAKES OUT... ANY SOUNDCARD UNDER 1500... PLUS THERE HIGHEER END ONES THAT KILL THE 888
5.AGAIN..FARM CARDS... THE MORE YOU HAVE THE MORE PLUG-INS YOU CAN RUN.. THE AUDIO YOU CAN RECORD AND HAVE PLAYBACK... NOW GRANTED YOU ONLY GET 32 2 STAART OFF... BUT I HAVE RATHER HAVE 32 TRACKS CAPTURED RIGHT .. THAN 32 CAPTURED THIN...( I CURRENTLY HAVE 3) AND THATS ALL U NEED...
I GET 44 TRACKS ALL THE TIME RUN SMOOTH WITH TONS OF PLUG INS AN NO PROPNBLEMS
6.IT WORKS WITH MACS PERFECTLY... AND IN MY OPINION.... MACS DON'T CRASH LIKE TH PC PROGRAMS DO...
7. IT'S EASY...
8. YOU CAN RUN REASON OR LOGIC.... SO IF YOU WANT EXTRA MIDI FEATURES USE THEM....

PRO TOOLS IS MEANT 4 RECORDING AND MIXING.... NOT MAKING BEATS...

I GET FRUSTRATED CUZ... CUZ GUYS LIKE VITAMINMAN... AIN'T HELPING PEOPLE MUCH HERE... JUS A SMART COMMENT... THEN HE DROPS THE INFO...
DONT GET ME WRONG VITAMINMAN.. IS THE MOST HELPFUL HERE..
BUT THE REST... JUS FOLLOW... WHAT THE NEXT MAN SAY...
I'M SPEAKINGFROM EXPERIENCE.. NOT.. MY ASS...
AS I KNOW ...VITA...IS SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE..
BUT BEATOFF WAS SPEAKING OUT HIS ASS

@VITAMINMAN.. HOW DOES SONAR OUTSHINE PRO TOOLS... BESIDES MIDI...
CUZ ANY PRO.. WILL TELL YOU MIDI ISN'T PTOOL STRONG POINT... BUT IT'S IS GETTING BETTA...

AND I PERSONALLY KNOW THAT MY REASON SOUNDS A LITTLE TIGHTER COMING FROM MY 888... THAN MY OL LAPTOP SOUNDCARD...

 

[Cold Truth]

mucka, vitaminman helps everyone on here! i cant count how many technical questions he has answered from everyone on this site. not everyone has had the education you have had, nor the money you have to get the things you have. vitaminman has solved so many problems its rediculous..... and all you do is tell people that they need an mpc and pro tools "because any pro will tell you...." and thats basically all you have done in this thread, until you finally gave a solid reason as to why pt was so much better; no one argued what you were saying, but you never said WHY until now.

guess what? most people are here to learn, and get info and get better. it is much more productive to share with people how to get the most out of what they HAVE then to tell them what they NEED to have. most of us have 9 to 5's, some of us have families, others are taking care of others in our households, i mean lets be realistic for a moment..... not all of us can use all our resources for this.

all i am saying is that with all your education you could (and have, not saying you dont) better help people by helping them get the most out of what they do have. all studio knowledge does not apply only to pro tools, and heres a question: how in the world did music ever get made before pro tools? i cant figure that one out.....

so.... given that midi is what the vast majority of us use, and need, and hardware is a bit too expensive (for anything that i use) and the fact that pro tools has fairly weak midi, and i got cubase sx (which is no slouch) and my soundcard and kontakt for less then what the digi 001 would have cost, cubase was a much better investment for me. cubase is more than sufficient to record live instruments and vocals, i know because i know 2 bands that recently recorded entire albums with it and they sound excellent. so why we go out and spend thousands we dont have on equipment thats weak point is the one element that is vital for most of us? that just isnt practical.

 

[themucka]

@ TRUTH TOLD.... I'M ALWAYS GLAD 2 SHARE REC./ MIXING TIPS... POST A THREAD I'LL REPLY... BUT MOST OF THE STUFF HERE... FL/CUBE/SONAR/REASON/COOL EDIT/.. THINGS I DON'T USE ON A DAILY BASIS OR NEVA... EXECPT REASON... BUT I USE FOR SOUNDS NOT 4 SEQUENCING...

I KNOW VITAMINMAN... IS HELPFUL...
SO IS FADE... HE MORE 2 THE POINT MY STYLE..

"AND I DON'T JUS SAY BUY AN MPC AN PRO TOOLS"...CMON.. THATS RIDICOULUS

SERIOUS PEOPLE WILL ASK YOU IS THIS A HOBBY OR IS THIS A BUISNESS...
THIS IS A BUISNESS WITH ME.... I'M PASSED HOBBY... I EAT SLEEP AND BREATHE THIS... I QUIT ALL THE DEALING I DID... ALL THE PARTYING AT CLUBS... ALL THE STUPID SHIT... AND DEDICATED MY LIFE TOWARD THIS... MUSIC ..AN HIP HOP

THIS AIN'T A HOBBY 4 ME.... SO YEAH... AN MPC.. ASR... SP12000.. ARE LOGICAL TOOLS... IT COST MONEY 2 MAKE MONEY....

I USE AN MOC2000XL... JUS BOUGHT 3000 2 WEEKS AGO... AND HAVE HAD AN ASR 4 A MONTH NOW... MY FRIEND LENT ME IT,,,

PRO TOOLS... IS 4 ME... I HAVE LOGIC... BUT THATS SHIT 2 CONFUSING...

I HONESTLY FEELL.. FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART.... THAT HARDWARE WILL ALWAYS BE BETTA THAN SOFTWARE 4 HIP HOP... WHEN IT COMES 2 SEQUENCING...
THATS MY OPINION.... FROM MY EXPERIENCE.. FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD ON HERE...2 OTHERS MUSIC. IVE HEARD... AND MY OWN EXPERIMENTS.. THATS JUS HOW I FEEL SO WHEN I EXPRESS THAT I'M DOING 4 YALL.. SO YALL CAN STEP YA GAME UP

 

[BeatOff]

^^^Thats cool thats your opinion. Most of my beefs with you came from you calling me amature because I use software and you're view was the only view. The last thing i wanna do is come on here and argue with everybody.

 

[Shonsteez]

Even though this doesnt completely relate to my intial topic - i just wanted to add that from reading everybodies comments back and forth about tha hardware vs software thing - im starting to think one important thing about tha argument:

1. Both are clearly capable of creating a high quality product with tha same complexity. Both will obviously have to also go to another guy who will do tha final mix(mastering)....Regardless of how good tha submix comes out...Not saying you cant get a really good near-finished-product, but my point is that both ways still will need that final professional touch which is also clearly applicable in both situations - whether you use hardware or software.
a)...Basically this comes down to preference. Tha older traditional ways of producing hiphop will still hold firm for prob. eternity, but regardless there are also newer ways to do tha same thing now.
b)...Tha alpha side producers - so to speak, will always dig tha way they have to beat on tha velocity sensitve pad of there mpc and keep most of their audio analogue and use other external hardwares to achieve tha traditional sound of hiphop.
c)...Tha beta side producers - so to speak, will most likely always dig tha newer-slightly-more complex ways of making hiphop on their pc's. This group usaully has to do a reasonable amount of research on tha softwares that are being used to fully utilize their prgm's - this really is quite tha same with hardwares, except theres seems to be a tendency to not need as much constant prep-time to use a hardware device...this isnt specifically true in every case.

I was really jus trying to point out that they both are two diff. worlds and they can be intertwined but they will most likely always stay on one side or tha other - hence making two completely diff. sub-catagories to create music through.

*I think we all need to realize though that a computer iz clearly capable of making tha same quality or maybe even higher as an external setup if not now - def. in tha near future - and it will also be more affordable and easier to get a hold of....thats jus tha way technology works.



Steeze

 

[BeatOff]

I think it comes down to hardware producers paying thousands for gear and upset that you can buy software for 1/10th the cost most of the time. Just becuase things cost alot doesnt mean its better also. When computers first came out shit with 2 megs of ram was 4000 thousand dollars. Hardware is marked up in price. It shouldnt cost that much. Its all about the soundcards and what you decide to use with software. You can re-create anything made on hardware with software and achieve the exact same sound if you want.

 

[God]

Dear TheMucka:

What version of ProTools HD do you use?

Sincerely,
God

 

[themucka]

@duceface... u missing the point... pro tools is all u need...... ima post a song i nthe next showcase... alll pro tools... plug-ins... all pro tools... profesionally mixed..

if i want i turn out pro ish at my house... i'm saying big studios use pro tools... with the ssl...(cuz they have the best of both worlds why not) cuz you got ssl eq... the routing possibities.. and plus most off the outboard gear is in the patchaby.... so they run and out out of pro tools.... into the ssl and use some outboard gear... back 2 the ssl..

@beatoff no ones mad... they cheaper programs are limited... they will not turn out that tru pro sound... quality... but a good songs a good song.. so if it's recorded in sonar.. or digital performer... it don't matter the song 1st has 2 be good...

pro tools allows you 2 get as close as possible 2 the pro sounds.. and it gives alot of mixing power 4 the song your working on......

it's pro tools... cuz you need certain things 2 make it that....
1.the program
2.the interface...888/882... theres HD... thers higher end interfaces that are 5gs for 8ins and 8outs...
3. you need a dsp farm card...

all these thing combined make a officail pro tools rig...

you can jus download sonar off *****.. and have sonar...

you can have a official PT SETUP WITH OUT THE FOLLOWING I DESCRIBED...

I HAVE USED EVERYTHING U GUYS HAVE THE DIFFERENCE IS I KEPT UPGRADING... MONEY WAS NOT A FACTOR 4 ME...

@GOD
I USE 6.1 TDM WITH AN 888. AND THREE FARM CARDS... I HAVE A FOURTH BUT I'M GETTING AN EXPANSOIN CHASIS... AND PUTTING THEM IN THERE...

TRITON/ROLANDXV3080/MOTIF/MO PHAT/SUPA NOVA 11/JUNO 106/ JX-3PMICRO KORG..

NUEMAN U87
AVALOM737sp

mackie 32/8... but only 20 channels and 6busses work

technics 12000 vestax mixer

roland amplifeid spkr.. there 4years old... or three...

 

[BeatOff]

How are cheaper programs limited exactly? My boy can master a song in Cubase Sx and that shit will sound better than Cd's done in a big 800,000 Dollar studio. Have you heard that ludacris word of mouth cd? The quality sucks. It was done on pro tools. Cubase is what 700$? What is the "Pro Sound" you keep talking about? There is no special sound that comes out of pro tools. If the engineer sucks he sucks. Its about the person. If somebody cant engineer right then the track will sound shitty no matter what he's on. If you know sound and what you're doing you can run a track through cool edit and have it sounding "Pro".

 

[themucka]

@BEAT OFF
1st off cds arn't master an a normal recording facilities...
there taken 2 people like FULLER SOUND... PRO WHO MASTER SONGS...
2 SONGS... WITH BOTH HAVING CLEAN , DIRTY , INSTRO... $350
THERES MORE 2 MASTERING THAN TURNING UP THE VOLUME

AND SPEAKING OFF LUDA. HE JUS RECORDED HIS ALBUM AT BOGART STUDIOS IN MIAMI... CHECK THE CREDITS ON HIS NEW ALBUM... AND THAT SHIT BLAZING..
BOB ROSA... DID A COUPLE MIXES ON THAT ALBUM .. PLEASE LEARN WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT PLEASE...

IT'S NOT JUS PRO TOOLS YOU FOOL.... PAY ATTENTION...... LAST TIME I'M DONE WITH THIS THREAD..

PRO TOOLS RECORD YOUR MUSIC AT THE BEST QUALITY POSSIBLE....
THE PLUG-INS AND THEW POWER IT PROVIDES IS UNMATCHED BY ALL....
NEXT... BECUASE OF IT'S RELIABILTY... IT'S EASE 2 SYNC.. 2 THE SSL MAKE IT A TOP CHOICE 4 PRO STUDIOS...

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP...

NO BRAND NEW FACILITIE WILL OFFER SONAR INSTEAD OF PRO TOOLS... IT JUS WONT HAPPEN... NOT EVEN LOGIC....

ANY 100,000 DOLLARS STUDIOS THAT OFFERS THAT WILL GO BROKE...

AND HERE ARE A FEW OF THE PRO TOOL USER
DRE... JD...NEPTUNES...TIM... SCOTT STORCH KANYE WEST... DAVID BANNER.. JUST BLAZE...PUFFY ... MARIO WINANS...BINK... JUS A FEW...

THAT HOW THEY GET THERE SOUND... RECORDING INTO PT... USING THE SSL
AND OUTBOARD GEAR... AND TAPE FOR WARMING...
AND PLUS IT BEING DONE RIGHT FROM THE BEGINING...
IF U RAP WACK IT'S GONNA SOUND WACK.. SAME 4 SINGING

SOMETIMES IT'S ALL PRO TOOLS.. CUZ THE TRACK IS HOT AND SOUND GOOD ALREADY.. JUS NEED THE EAR 2 FIX CERTAIN THINGS...

I'M DONE... STAY WITH IGNORANCE... YOU WILL NEVA GET THAT DOPE SOUND YOU CRAVE

 

[Shonsteez]

Muck - i dont disagree with you that protools is good for near professional quality, I have paid close attention to tha credits in my music too and have noticed many people use it also. For example El-P of tha Def JUx crew used tha digi 001 for his first solo release, and i will hands down say it sounded great. But...I also think it could have still sounded better in some respects even though it was really quite perfect in my opinion, when i comapre it to say some higher money driven shit like tha backstreet boys....And noooo...Im not a fan or listen to that shit - im purely making a simple point that in comparison - i dont find a HUGE difference between a PROTOOLS track versus a SONAR track when your lookin at big money type shit like that.

 

[BeatOff]

For one why are you insulting me. #2 Why do you type in all caps and make no sense with what you type. You type like you were dropped on your head at age 3 and never recovered. I SAID WORD OF MOUTH NOT CHICKEN AND BEER YOU NON READIN GIMP.

I havent even heard his new album so why dont you learn how to read before you insult me you cross eyed dweeb. I dont give a fuck who uses pro tools you clone. Why do you keep going back to what artists use what equiptment. You trying to be like them or something? You too scared to venture off on your own, Or do you read production magazines and buy all their equiptment so you can sound like them.

This is a hopeless debate, you cant do anything but result to insults and start suckin the dicks of people you idolize. You're the most ignorant arrogant dumb fuckin geek on this site. Period. You cant even make sense when you type. Let alone know what you're talking about. Thats on another level of stupidity. For a professional you claim to be the least you could do is learn how to link to your site. Idiot.

 

[themucka]

@DUCE..001 AND 0002.. ARE WEAK AND ARE NOTHING LIKE TDM OR HD....

001 IS THIN.. I HATE... THE AUDIO CARD IS NOT 2 TIGHT...
I USE TDM... THERES A BIG DIFFERENCE QUALITY WISE...

001 THIN...

AND KNOW DIFFERENCE... LOOK AT A NEPTUNES "SLAVE" ALL ON PRO TOOLS... AND ANY SONAR SONG HERE... CMON DUCE...

MM 8MILE TRACK SONG PT...

WHEN I SAY PRO TOOLS.. I DON'T MEAN 001 /002... I MEAN TDM OR HD

TDM / HD ARE HIGH END GEAR.... 001/002... WERE MEANT FOR LOW LEVEL CONSUMERS WHO CAN'T AFFORD THE REAL DEAL SET UP

 

[God]

Personally,

I think the advantage that a ProTools HD setup with Farmcards has over a common SONAR w/PC setup is the stability that the HD setup provides when recording over and over live, and the advantage of instant Farmcard DSP power.

For example, I find an HD setup much more reliable if I am recording an artist or band, it is far more stable than SONAR in long sessions. That isn't to diminish SONAR, which is a great piece of software utilising native elements of a PC for its power, rather than Farmcards (which are great._

Farmcards, are a huge, albeit expensive advantage, and are what I like about an HD setup. I don't believe in the insanely high sample rate of 192kHz, but many use that as a benchmark, or a reason for argument.

Honestly, many people I know have bought into a cycle of planned obsolescence that Digidesign brings, myself included, and among peers that all must have the latest technologies, I have to keep up and know how to use what most of the studios I work in have. A lot of this investment costs a lot of money, and many people, may not have money. From the looks of this forum, many don't, and SONAR offers a great alternative.

Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics.

I think that high quality converters are what matter a lot, and a lot of people don't talk about it.

Sincerely,
God