This isn't the debate with the two. I just wanted to know if I should continue trying to master my composition skills without piano lessons until the summer or try and master sampling first since there are no lessons necessary and since it's easier and faster to learn than trying to compose on my own and master it. Need some advice here. Oh and I've been composing ever since I've started beatmaking which is on and off for less than a year.
Sampling or Composing
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polyphonically beyond me
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 5
im much less a beatmaker than a writer but i think sampling is a great thing to master. I took music theory and it's real nice to know but begins a journey that will cancel out time for sampling. If you master sampling than I would guess you could focus your composing abilities to compliment your sampling techniques. This is just a theory though.. opinions?
Sanova said:
Yeah, that's why I asked this question. With composing, in order to master it, you're gonna need some type of piano skills which takes years to get down and then comes the part where you actually have to apply that to create your own music with the knowledge you have. While with sampling, IMO, it's just easier to learn cuz basically anyone could do it if they have the mentality to listen and learn and to practice.
But I already know I want to do both, my question is which one I should try and master first.
Sanova
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ill o.g.
Battle Points: 9
Seoul P said:
not true. to master composing you dont need "piano skills" elementree and variosu other members here are strictly composers with no keyboard at all. the only knowledge you would probably need in order to master this skill is rudimentary music theory.
while sampling, not only must you have an ear for music, tone/tune, and tempo, you must be much more creative if ur trying to produce a sampled work that isnt just a loop.
dont get me wrong, im more of a composer than a sampler by a long shot, but i thought it was "easier" until i got into it. Its a whole other world, in which you will badically be starting from the begining, cuz theres so much to learn (Chopping, digging, Eq'ing, distorting, flippin, etc.).
i mean anybody CAN do it, but not effectively, but that goes just as perfectly with composition. i mean... i neveer had any piano lessons.... so....
EDIT: Also, Most producers who sample, including my self, like to compose OVER the sample to add an extra element that is unattainable any other way.
peep game
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5th Sequence
Hip Hop Head, Certified
Sanova said:
Agree.
The sample doesnt have to be a huge part of the beat, it could be a small part that gets your creative juices flowing. You may come across a sample and then you'll compose a whole beat around this one smallsample.
Dont focus on either one by itself though, expand your process into forcing yourself to incorperate both styles in one. Maybe mess with a sample and then see what melodies you can compose over it. I wouldnt suggest only focusing on one and not the other. At times you'll get sick of composing and start messing samples or you'll feel stuck with sampling and go to composing. do what feels right for yourself and for the beat!!
Myself and many other producers find balance in using both, but you dont NEED to do one or the other in any order.
ive been getting up on composing alot because I find it easier than sampling actually. I wil lget very frustrated if i dig for a sample and chop it up for like 20-30 minutes, then when i finally get it all ready to be flipped, i can't get it to sound real hot, its like, there is so much easier shit with composing, especially building off melodies, like making a REAL hot bassline on a sample aint a real easy thing to do. I don't know i'm kinda going off track, but I like doing them both
Sanova said:
That's half true. Composing isn't just music theory. It's an art just like sampling, not just some technical stuff like chords, scales, progressions, etc. Since most of us are just in house producers, we have no choice but to use the VSTs and outboard modules they have out. But what are you gonna do when you blow up and need a live ensemble. You gonna sit there and tryna show them how to emotionally play something when you're sitting there clicking the notes in the piano roll? No, you're gonna show them through the keys on how it should sound. That's where fingering, timing, etc. kicks in. And I know sampling is the same way, but it's just my opinion that sampling is easier. Maybe it'll change when I dig deeper into it.
But yo 5th, I like what you said. I think I'm gonna roll with that. Doing both composing and sampling together. Anybody have any nice links where I could read up some basics on chopping cuz I have trouble getting the chops to fit in a bar? Or just tips with sampling in general that I could start with.
And yeah, I plan on using both composing and sampling together in my beats in the future. Get the best of both worlds.
I know what you mean tre. Sometimes with composing too, I sit there for like 2 hours tryna come up with something but I can't get anything that sounds decent. It's just a matter of how well your creative juicies are flowing man.
Sanova
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ill o.g.
Battle Points: 9
Seoul P said:
lol. thats called music theory buddy. i didnt say anything to the extent of composing is just technical stuff. I play saxaphone and composed sheet music for many years, i understand fully. also, what do u think kanye west or dr. dre, or anyone else does when they need a band to play some shit for them, the definatelyl do not sit down and right out the notation. usually theres a guy on the keys with extensive skills in playing piano and a vast amount of music theory and composition.
Seoul P But yo 5th said:
Sanova said:
Fingering is?
"the only knowledge you would probably need in order to master this skill is rudimentary music theory." That's what you said. You're basically saying music theory is all you need and music theory is technical stuff.
I'm done with this convo. It's goin off topic.
Haha nah, I liked what 5th said about "not focusing on just sampling or composing", but actually practicing both at the same time. I saw your edit on your earlier post and I know that, I've done it before too.
Sanova
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ill o.g.
Battle Points: 9
Seoul P said:
music theory = the study of how music is put together.. not "technical stuff"
to "master", as u put it, composition in hip hop beat making, thats the knowledge u would want. i know my shit. ur like 12 years old, dont try to man up to me when u didnt research.
djrekonize
ILLIEN
ill o.g.
this is kind of off topic but anyone know any good books on music theory?
Sanova
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ill o.g.
Battle Points: 9
Seoul P said:
i know ur not really 12, i was using it as a metaphor for how i thought u were acting. by man up, i meant be the bigger man, and walk away from the convo, but i still felt some things were left un addressed.
and DJrecognize, shoot me a PM.
back to topic it all depends on ur ear, some people just have a knack for developing dope melodies in their head,
some people have a knack for manuplaint samples and some peopel can do both.
as far as music theory is concerned their are 2 sides of it, their is the basic shit like counting bars, knowing triads etc... and then their is the advances shit.... for hip hop unless ur doing some sort of orchastion u dont need it
I say this again and again on here ALL music theory does is explain what most talented people do naturally. U CAN HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN MUSICTHOERY, i does not mean u will compose dope shit , all it means it that u understand the structure of music, i really want u guys to understand this...
I went to school with some of guys who knew all the theory in the world and couldent compose a melody to save their life.... Music theory is the structure of music and wasent developed fully untill the early to mid 1800's, bach dident know music theory as we know it but look at the music he composed, point is , it comes down to your indivdual talent
As far as sampling and composing, well i do both, and i can tell u each invloves its own unique skillset... dont limit urself to one or the other or try to learn one at a time, mix and match
alot of times, i will alternate, make sampled beats one week and composed beats the next, since they involve difffernt skills it keeps me fresh
Also learning how to play the piano wont nesscarly make u a better producer, their is difference between learing how to play others peoples music and developing ur own.... so dont think taking piano lessions is automatically gonna make u dope, that aint the case at all, trust me..
my 2 cents
some people have a knack for manuplaint samples and some peopel can do both.
as far as music theory is concerned their are 2 sides of it, their is the basic shit like counting bars, knowing triads etc... and then their is the advances shit.... for hip hop unless ur doing some sort of orchastion u dont need it
I say this again and again on here ALL music theory does is explain what most talented people do naturally. U CAN HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN MUSICTHOERY, i does not mean u will compose dope shit , all it means it that u understand the structure of music, i really want u guys to understand this...
I went to school with some of guys who knew all the theory in the world and couldent compose a melody to save their life.... Music theory is the structure of music and wasent developed fully untill the early to mid 1800's, bach dident know music theory as we know it but look at the music he composed, point is , it comes down to your indivdual talent
As far as sampling and composing, well i do both, and i can tell u each invloves its own unique skillset... dont limit urself to one or the other or try to learn one at a time, mix and match
alot of times, i will alternate, make sampled beats one week and composed beats the next, since they involve difffernt skills it keeps me fresh
Also learning how to play the piano wont nesscarly make u a better producer, their is difference between learing how to play others peoples music and developing ur own.... so dont think taking piano lessions is automatically gonna make u dope, that aint the case at all, trust me..
my 2 cents
eXampuL_oNe
LOW-PRO
I say incorporate them both... I used to (and still do) like to just take an orchestral hit and throw it into the triton, play with it and MAN! You'll be surprised at how much a little sample will do (change the pitch, depth, do a timestretch, add a reverb or delay). I basically would just use it for a stepping stone to get the beat started and build the keys around it, if you will.. Try it man, just a little stab or hit or just one of them ill ass half bar samples that everyone finds here and then. It's a good way to start if you are unfamiliar with it. Scott Storch does alot of this.
Sanova
Guess Who's Back
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 9
classic said:
those were the the original points i was trying to itterate.
"I say this again and again on here ALL music theory does is explain what most talented people do naturally. U CAN HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN MUSICTHOERY, i does not mean u will compose dope shit , all it means it that u understand the structure of music, i really want u guys to understand this..."
good point.
djrekonize said:
tonal harmony by dothrhy pain is a book i use as my refernce guide
its a standard book for most 3rd year music majors,its straght and to the point
BUT dont cop this book if u know nothing about music, this books assumes that you have a solid understading of the basic's of music theory and goes indepth into some very advanced topics...
deStructuralize
ILLIEN
ill o.g.
My perception of hip-hop production in particular is that it's a form of sensual expression. Theory's important, but always comes secondary to how a piece makes you "feel." The purpose of any "flip" is to take a piece of preperformed musical history and squeeze it into something that better fuels your own expressions as an artist. Composition essentially moves towards the same goal. The fact that you're rearranging pre-recorded musical phrases in one and "creating" your own phrases with the other is irrelevant...I just try to squeeze as much feeling out of the tracks I work on as possible.
So on that note, I don't really know what it means to "master" either. For me, a "mastery" of compositional techniques will help (that's why I'm self-studying music theory), but it won't make you a wicked composer. I don't think there's even a codified standard for what it means to "master" sampling. I just try to focus on making good music (haha, I'll get there someday)...I think that "learning" about either method comes naturally when I do that.
I dunno if that makes sense to ya'll or not, but that's my take. In short, I'd say I've been focusing on learning both at the same time and I don't really think of them as separate tools. In the end they're pieces of the same Jig-Soul puzzle.
So on that note, I don't really know what it means to "master" either. For me, a "mastery" of compositional techniques will help (that's why I'm self-studying music theory), but it won't make you a wicked composer. I don't think there's even a codified standard for what it means to "master" sampling. I just try to focus on making good music (haha, I'll get there someday)...I think that "learning" about either method comes naturally when I do that.
I dunno if that makes sense to ya'll or not, but that's my take. In short, I'd say I've been focusing on learning both at the same time and I don't really think of them as separate tools. In the end they're pieces of the same Jig-Soul puzzle.