Questions About Purchasing Professional Mixing and Mastering

[Low G]

I'm producing a project that is close to being finished as far as the recordings go. I've been here on Illmuzik and a few other sites for the past few years working hard at improving my beats, recording techniques, and general songmaking abilities. I don't want my hard work to suffer from a bad mix or mastering job. With the complexity of mixing like automating EQ and knowing just what frequency to cut or boost on any given track I'm not going to be an idiot and try to do everything myself. I know that would ruin everything in the end.

This will be the first project I have done that I want to put "out there" and use as a vehicle to start trying to build a career. Unfortunately, having never produced a full finished project before from start to end I need to learn the process and be as professional as I can when dealing with people so I can get exactly what I want out of it. I don't have a huge budget so knowing what a reasonable rate is per song or day and what I can expect quality wise would help. One guy I checked was $400 a day and another was like $60 per song but would go cheaper if his buddy did mastering (suspect in my eyes).

The studio where I had most of the vocal recordings done at offered to link up mixing and mastering. Just because of the way that place is run and the guy talks (plus the computer mixing magazine with underlines in the "Hot EQ Tips!" section) really made a voice in the back of my head scream "hacks". Those guys deal with mostly rock music so it seemed to me like he was thinking he could get a bunch of my money and not put much effort into the mix. Basically, his pitch didn't fill me with confidence in his abilities.

God's stories of hacks and unprofessional people have got me on my toes. I don't want to come off like that to other people and certainly don't want to associate with them if I can avoid it. I basically started this thread to see if anyone had some solid advice on where to start looking for the right people to work on my project and avoid the pitfalls, hacks, hustlers, and anything else that could go wrong in getting a professional mix and mastering job.

I would also love any tips on ways of possibly getting other people interested enough to invest in this step and try my hand at that "smart businessman" approach people seem to rave about.

Once this mixing and mastering step is done I'll feel better because I have a few other things like album artwork and music videos allready in the works. Hopefully I can impress some people and start building a following when everything finally comes together.

(Promo and distribution is a whole other story but there are plenty of other threads and ideas on that allready)

Peace.

 

[God]

I'm producing a project that is close to being finished as far as the recordings go. I've been here on Illmuzik and a few other sites for the past few years working hard at improving my beats, recording techniques, and general songmaking abilities. I don't want my hard work to suffer from a bad mix or mastering job. With the complexity of mixing like automating EQ and knowing just what frequency to cut or boost on any given track I'm not going to be an idiot and try to do everything myself. I know that would ruin everything in the end.

This will be the first project I have done that I want to put "out there" and use as a vehicle to start trying to build a career. Unfortunately, having never produced a full finished project before from start to end I need to learn the process and be as professional as I can when dealing with people so I can get exactly what I want out of it. I don't have a huge budget so knowing what a reasonable rate is per song or day and what I can expect quality wise would help. One guy I checked was $400 a day and another was like $60 per song but would go cheaper if his buddy did mastering (suspect in my eyes).

The studio where I had most of the vocal recordings done at offered to link up mixing and mastering. Just because of the way that place is run and the guy talks (plus the computer mixing magazine with underlines in the "Hot EQ Tips!" section) really made a voice in the back of my head scream "hacks". Those guys deal with mostly rock music so it seemed to me like he was thinking he could get a bunch of my money and not put much effort into the mix. Basically, his pitch didn't fill me with confidence in his abilities.

God's stories of hacks and unprofessional people have got me on my toes. I don't want to come off like that to other people and certainly don't want to associate with them if I can avoid it. I basically started this thread to see if anyone had some solid advice on where to start looking for the right people to work on my project and avoid the pitfalls, hacks, hustlers, and anything else that could go wrong in getting a professional mix and mastering job.

I would also love any tips on ways of possibly getting other people interested enough to invest in this step and try my hand at that "smart businessman" approach people seem to rave about.

Once this mixing and mastering step is done I'll feel better because I have a few other things like album artwork and music videos allready in the works. Hopefully I can impress some people and start building a following when everything finally comes together.

(Promo and distribution is a whole other story but there are plenty of other threads and ideas on that allready)

Peace.

THIS IS POST IS NOT BUSINESS OR LEGAL ADVICE, DO NOT MAKE DECISIONS THAT HAVE LEGAL OR MONETARY OUTCOMES BASED ON THE STATEMENTS IN THIS POST:

Low G:

If you want a high quality mix and a great mastering job - you will have to pay.

1. The people I deal with ARE professional and you would definitely NOT consider them hacks. BUT they are stupid as FUCK and I call them out when I bullshit them. These are people that can charge up to $5,000+ a day for their work - so I WILL call them out. They know better.

The hacks you talk to are wannabes.

2. Mixing and mastering are generally done by two different people, a mixing engineer and a mastering engineer. You will pay different rates for each.

3. A top notch mix for can cost between $3,000-$10,0000 PER TRACK. It usually takes a day or 1 1/2 days per track for a true professional to make a great mix. (You don't have that money.)

4. Music sounds "pro" for a reason. It's because the record company paid top dollar for studio, the engineers, etc. to make the record. Do not expect that your record, no matter how much time you put into it will sound "just like" the shit you hear on the radio.

5. Mastering is an art form that FEW PEOPLE understand. A pro mixer will recommend a pro-mastering engineer. The mixing engineer KNOWS BETTER than to master the record himself. But if a person just views you as a client, he will try to milk your ass on both ends - like the tool in your post said.

6. Be reasonable in your expectations. Know your budget and work within it to get the "best" possible outcome. Maybe you don't even need to mix it - because it sounds "good enough."

I personally have been privy to GREAT SONGS that were MIXED BADLY and ended up SHITTY. WHY? Because the mixing engineer (along with the producer) was a novice. A good mixing engineer will have leeway into actual sonic input on the track, and add or replace samples to make your SONG SOUND BETTER.

7. Do NOT attempt to master a record yourself if you want a "pro" sound - you need access to a high-level studio with proper reference monitors, etc., to get a good reference to make judgment. BAD MASTERING CAN FUCK UP YOUR ENTIRE PROJECT.

Start here and ask questions from people even more knowledgeable:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/

Ask 'em for a good mixing engineer or mastering engineer, be humble about it - and they can help you. But remember, a lot of them are pros so expect that prices are not going to be cheap. BUT THEY KNOW THEIR SHIT.

THIS IS POST IS NOT BUSINESS OR LEGAL ADVICE, DO NOT MAKE DECISIONS THAT HAVE LEGAL OR MONETARY OUTCOMES BASED ON THE STATEMENTS IN THIS POST:

 

[classic]

Pay.....
Its worth it, the dude me and ash used was named LROX he has a mixing mastering studio out in cali, he has done everybody from kev brown to El the sensi to illmind. hAs done all types of music but speclizes in hip hop(which is important)

He is professinal, and knows how to keep a schedule and is cheap,(realtivly) i cant sing his praises enough

his site is http://www.redsecta.com/ tell em the smash brothers sent you may get a good deal out of that(no promisies)

 

[God]

Pay.....
Its worth it, the dude me and ash used was named LROX he has a mixing mastering studio out in cali, he has done everybody from kev brown to El the sensi to illmind. hAs done all types of music but speclizes in hip hop(which is important)

He is professinal, and knows how to keep a schedule and is cheap,(realtivly) i cant sing his praises enough

his site is http://www.redsecta.com/ tell em the smash brothers sent you may get a good deal out of that(no promisies)

HOLY SHIT, Class - their rates are low. You sure they don't just run all their shit through a program default and call it a day? I'm used to $1,000 per track with the dude sitting their tweaking the multiband comp.

Those rates are dangerously cheap, I'm skeptical.

 

[divineaspex]

HOLY SHIT, Class - their rates are low. You sure they don't just run all their shit through a program default and call it a day? I'm used to $1,000 per track with the dude sitting their tweaking the multiband comp.

Those rates are dangerously cheap, I'm skeptical.

Well I guess the only way to really figure it out is to listen to the Smash Brothers music yourself......and compare to your 5,000 a day rip-off mixers.

 

[Low G]

Thanks God, I checked that garslutz link and it looks like a good bet for finding more info. I definitely must settle for the "good enough" category because $10,000 a song would be a *checks account balances* problem. It is my first attempt at a release after all and I'm certainly not expecting money to rain from the sky and pay off those kind of bills. Anyone willing to invest that kind of money on a first time project probably has better chances playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.

I also checked the link you posted class and I do know many of the artists he's referenced so I'll research the tracks he's done with them as well as check the Smash Brothers album again.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[God]

Well I guess the only way to really figure it out is to listen to the Smash Brothers music yourself......and compare to your 5,000 a day rip-off mixers.

Those $5,000 day "rip off" mixers probably mixed that shitty Lil' Wayne CD you have in your car. If you have a CD player.

Go fuck yourself, there was nothing said AGAINST the Smash Bros.

 

[skidflow]

those $5,000 day "rip off" mixers probably mixed that shitty lil' wayne cd you have in your car. If you have a cd player.

Go fuck yourself, there was nothing said against the smash bros.

wow...

 

[2GooD Productions]

in the world of mixing and mastering you get what you pay for.
the more you pay the better the result.
its nothing to do with ripping you off, but more to do with industry rates.
The best engineers command a greater fee for their time, as they have no trouble finding work as reputation holds much weight as an engineer.
Dj Swivel charges premium prices for engineering, and rightly so, he has proven himself already, and has the reputation to be able to.

 

[divineaspex]

Those $5,000 day "rip off" mixers probably mixed that shitty Lil' Wayne CD you have in your car. If you have a CD player.

Go fuck yourself, there was nothing said AGAINST the Smash Bros.

WTF? that wasn't supposed to be offending. But I have to need to apologize to a dickhead who calls himself God. BITCH.

 

[Low G]

in the world of mixing and mastering you get what you pay for.
the more you pay the better the result.
its nothing to do with ripping you off, but more to do with industry rates.
The best engineers command a greater fee for their time, as they have no trouble finding work as reputation holds much weight as an engineer.
Dj Swivel charges premium prices for engineering, and rightly so, he has proven himself already, and has the reputation to be able to.

I have no problem paying for a good job but the grey area is in affording one. I have to accept for myself that any money I put into this project I most likely will never see again so it is important to me to research and get a good understanding of what is out there before I make a move.

All the expensive guys with a reputation are in a league that the mediocre ones have been weeded out of. In order to get the best I can afford my best bet would be to hopefully find someone who is on the road to becoming a solid professional but doesn't quite have the rep yet. In order to do that I really need to keep checking around and learning what I can.

I'm trying to do something with this release and hopefully put some building blocks into place towards somewhat of a career so sounding and looking as professional as I can is important. Unfortunately, being realistic comes into play as well.

 

[God]

"Divine Aspects":

That was unbecoming of me to tell you to go fuck yourself, but you should know that $5,000 a day mixers are not "rip-off" mixers. When I relay a story like one of the stories I place in this forum - I am always looking to make a mix better and the mix is never done until its sent to the mastering lab. You can always make it better.

We're also talking about mastering here too.

What bothers me is that people believe they can get the same type of mastering job from their bedroom DAW as Sterling Sound or one of the other fine mastering studios that master many of the CDs you listen to. I don't believe that the cats Smash Bros. used are in the same league - and I don't really care. If the Smash Bros. got a great recording and liked their services, that's good.

I generally forget that the audience on this board is mixed. But please refrain from accusing someone of "ripping people off" just because they charge a high price for a very professional mix. In my opinion, there is a distinct difference between a person that mixes a track, and a person that masters a track. These, in my opinion are two different artforms and you usually hire two different people.

I like the pseudonym "God"... it's controversial and it sticks out. People remember it. That's also good from a marketing standpoint - to be controversial and make people remember it... it's been used in hiphop numerous times.

That's a topic for a marketing post, but you did raise an interesting question in your last post... the fact that something can strike a chord, just by being named something - well...

Could a rapper that wants to stick out from the crowd that has great music- can they put a controversial slant on things to get ahead? Can this get them ahead in a pile of demo CDs listened to by an A&R's intern... the answer is YES.

You just inspired my next post...

 

[Ash Holmz]

yeah redsecta is as good as it gets for budget mixing and mastering. lrox is a very cool cat and he will work with you as long as it takes to get your projects sounding right. if u want a super commercial quality pro mix and hook u up with my boy ariel who is a multiplatinum engineer that works with/has worked with some of the biggest names in music period. You cant go wrong with lrox though, the quality to price ratio is off the chain. if u give him some well recorded tracks he will def make them good enough to pop in the club just anything else. Our songs sounded great in the club and in peoples cars. I mean i can tell the diffrence in sound quality between fear factor and a major commercial recording, but alot of people can't or just dont care for the little subtleties. and their is much more involved in that then just the mixing and mastering. I mean we recorded fear factor into a digi 002, and it came out sounding proper. My advice, as a indepedent cat releasing ur first real serious project go with lrox @ redsecta. www.redsecta.com ... highly recommended

 

[divineaspex]

"Divine Aspects":

That was unbecoming of me to tell you to go fuck yourself, but you should know that $5,000 a day mixers are not "rip-off" mixers. When I relay a story like one of the stories I place in this forum - I am always looking to make a mix better and the mix is never done until its sent to the mastering lab. You can always make it better.

We're also talking about mastering here too.

What bothers me is that people believe they can get the same type of mastering job from their bedroom DAW as Sterling Sound or one of the other fine mastering studios that master many of the CDs you listen to. I don't believe that the cats Smash Bros. used are in the same league - and I don't really care. If the Smash Bros. got a great recording and liked their services, that's good.

I generally forget that the audience on this board is mixed. But please refrain from accusing someone of "ripping people off" just because they charge a high price for a very professional mix. In my opinion, there is a distinct difference between a person that mixes a track, and a person that masters a track. These, in my opinion are two different artforms and you usually hire two different people.

I like the pseudonym "God"... it's controversial and it sticks out. People remember it. That's also good from a marketing standpoint - to be controversial and make people remember it... it's been used in hiphop numerous times.

That's a topic for a marketing post, but you did raise an interesting question in your last post... the fact that something can strike a chord, just by being named something - well...

Could a rapper that wants to stick out from the crowd that has great music- can they put a controversial slant on things to get ahead? Can this get them ahead in a pile of demo CDs listened to by an A&R's intern... the answer is YES.

You just inspired my next post...

It's all good man, I think u just took it a little too personally. It was actually supposed to be more of a joke. Of course you aren't gonna get a better mix from someone who charges $50 a track. But I think as producers we are a little too critical of things like that. You give an average joe from down south, Lil Wayne's Carter 3, and Kanye's Graduation, he's prolly gonna say C3 SOUNDS better.

 

[God]

You give an average joe from down south, Lil Wayne's Carter 3, and Kanye's Graduation, he's prolly gonna say C3 SOUNDS better.

I don't want to thread jack... but I think more cats should focus on writing songs for the "average joe" too. That's why people that are musicians or more sophisticated regarding production hate the lowest-common denominator type shit (like Soulja Boy)... the thing is... think of writing a song for that cousin you meet at the family reunion who's dumb as fuck and you don't really like him.

He's the average consumer. Write for him if you want to make money.

Or if you have a sister or a female cousin- she probably loves shit like "love songs" etc., that you could probably vomit too.

She's also the average consumer. Write for her if you want to make money.

This thread opened up a lot of new and interesting ideas we can discuss. I don't have the time... but if you want to make bread as a producer - sometimes you have to sell your soul on a song, because that's what people like the dumbass cousin or the average sister listens to.

Sigh.

 

[Low G]

This thread opened up a lot of new and interesting ideas we can discuss. I don't have the time... but if you want to make bread as a producer - sometimes you have to sell your soul on a song, because that's what people like the dumbass cousin or the average sister listens to.

Sigh.

Funny you mention that because while working on the project above myself and the artists I worked with had a similar discussion on reaching the average listener. Instead of catering completely to the hip hop scene we decided that trying a few songs that anyone could relate to wouldn't hurt. They could still maintain the vibe of the album but aim specifically towards the ladies or that dumbass cousin. The subject matter wouldn't even need to be dumbed down (compared to the rest of the album) just change up the approach taken in presenting it to the target listener.

Something as simple as bringing in a rock guitarist (from a well known local band even) to lay down a solo over a beat instead of doing a third or second verse could be appealing to someone who might not normally listen to hip hop music. I met this guy Brownman who has played on Gurus Jazzmataz and many other projects and I could easily afford to have him lay down crazy horns on one of my tracks.

I think that it's still possible to be yourself as an artist when trying to reach certain people it just takes a little adapting and a personalized spin on what they consider good.

 

[Relic]

The subject matter wouldn't even need to be dumbed down (compared to the rest of the album)


just change up the approach taken in presenting it to the target listener.

.

I like this!

Great ideas man!

Earl Holder in ATL is the mastering guy for PE and other famous cats , hes very reasonable, I'll PM you the link!

 

[God]

Funny you mention that because while working on the project above myself and the artists I worked with had a similar discussion on reaching the average listener. Instead of catering completely to the hip hop scene we decided that trying a few songs that anyone could relate to wouldn't hurt. They could still maintain the vibe of the album but aim specifically towards the ladies or that dumbass cousin. The subject matter wouldn't even need to be dumbed down (compared to the rest of the album) just change up the approach taken in presenting it to the target listener.

Something as simple as bringing in a rock guitarist (from a well known local band even) to lay down a solo over a beat instead of doing a third or second verse could be appealing to someone who might not normally listen to hip hop music. I met this guy Brownman who has played on Gurus Jazzmataz and many other projects and I could easily afford to have him lay down crazy horns on one of my tracks.

I think that it's still possible to be yourself as an artist when trying to reach certain people it just takes a little adapting and a personalized spin on what they consider good.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on your points there. I think to reach a broad audience, if that's what you're trying to do, it is absolutely necessary to dumb-down songs.

If you want to maintain a form of "artistic integrity" while bringing in new elements (like a guitar solo) - that is obviously workable.

I can't stress enough the Black Eyed Peas situation. They went from a respectable "underground" sound, with good lyricism and being labelmates with Black Star (Mos Def, Talib Kweli) to selling their souls with cheesy rap-pop.

I really believe that dumbing down music to where 10 year olds can understand and listen to it is key to record sales. I don't like that fact - but I think this is an issue that Lupe Fiasco is struggling with. He's a talented lyricist who had to dumb down songs (case in point: "Superstar") in order to make bread.

I look forward to hearing your ideas on this... but it unfortunately comes down to money... or something so blatantly innovative that it changes the entire game (i.e. Led Zeppelin, N.W.A.)

Again - I don't want to thread jack... but this is a good convo.

 

[Relic]

^^ I hate to believe that but I know your right, I just would like to see what they come with ..lol


Dumbing down songs really IS the key to being a lasting succesfully selling artist.

Case in Point: Good Golly Miss Molly, Great Balls of Fire

Was pink Floyd huge and deep ..? Ya, but more people will know the above.
Just go on vacation where" normal " are and watch what they dance to at parties...say Atlantic City on the boardwalk, I mean its true!

 

[God]

^^ I hate to believe that but I know your right, I just would like to see what they come with ..lol

Relic,

I'm in no way critiquing your idea, nor do I want to be right. My opinion comes from observation and experience.

The thing is that both observation AND experience can be proven wrong. I really WANT to be wrong. You need to be a gamechanger (LL Cool J back in the 80's, N.W.A.) or play the odds with the dumbed-down music.

Most people aren't gamechangers - that's why they go with the dumbed-down formula.

There's nothing more ego-deflating than sitting with somebody you know is talented and telling them:

"look, you need to write a love song. Psychoanalytical shit about how the planets align with the sun and the Age of Aquarius will come and your Ras Kass-like verse about human history spit in triplets or whatever other bullshit you're saying in this first verse is not going to give us a return on investement. Just rhyme 'love' with 'above'. Say 'kiss' with 'miss.' You will fucking sell."

They dumb it down the chorus to: "Girl we can be together, blahblah forever."

It sells, you make an ROI. Rapper lives with himself and an empty soul for the rest of his life. Rapper gets paid and you get a return on investment.

A Faustian bargain. Welcome to the music business.