Lord Finesse vs Mac Miller Lawsuit
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UNORTHODOX
Father Timeless
he said the song, not the instrumental. We dont know for sure that it was cleared, Samples DO go uncleared, ya know?
Im a little unsure about the copyrightability of this derivative work though. The copyright office says reformatting is not copyrightable
UNORTHODOX
Father Timeless
Right because a discussion on a forum about copyrights and new precedents of lawsuits is completely pointless//sarcasm. Im discussing what happened and the ideas about what could happen, as an aspiring artist and producer, I'd think you guys would be interested in this discussion besides the "He used the beat, sue his ass" aspect.
This thread wouldnt be here in the first place if the story was over, haha. There'd be no need for discussion and the law wouldve been laid with both sides reaching an agreement. If yall dont want to discuss the ramifications thats cool, but dont act like its only LF's side and he is god, so what he says is final. Like I said, details still need to come out for the story, and legal aspects of our culture to be resolved. Yall seem done though, so I'll keep up with the story and further details out of this thread. peace
Fade
The Beat Strangler
Administrator
illest o.g.
Ya but see if I was the defence attorney I'd say it like I just posted in my last post then the judge would slam the gavel down and go eat his lunch. Then Relic would make copies of the minutes of the case and then post on here about how he hates his job and we'd all have a good laugh. Lord Finesse wins.
Finesse was obviously talking about an instrumental as you said it yourself, no sound of finesse lyrics at all.
The very fact that Finesse is pursuing this says one of two things.....
1. Finesse Cleared the samples as he is not an idiot.
or
2. Finesse is an idiot.
Ill put my money on 1.
Finesse has done it all, written and performed lyrics(very well), produced beats(very well), dj'ed(I dont know how well personally, Id say he would be good) So on the balance of that, I wouldnt say Finesse was stupid.
Here in the UK copyright is active from the very moment a recording is created. If that recording is a derivative work, then it is up to the creator of the derivative work to have those samples cleared with every holder of copyright on the sampled piece
One work can have many copyright holders....
the recording(often owned by the label),
the lyrics(often owned by who wrote them),
the music(owned by composer/producer and/or the individuals in the band) <<< Which is whats relevant in this case!!
If he didnt make money off of it then lord finesse has no right to do anything, but bottom line lord finesse got jacked, no other way to put it. He made the beat and he should be paid for it. Did all the other producers on the album get paid for their beats? I bet they did. Just because the beats been around for a while doesnt change anything
God
Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
I think there are several issues at hand.
First as Unorthodox said, there is a dangerous precedent set here. A similar precedent killed what was original sample-based hip-hop in the late 90's - early 2000's. Please read everything and hear me out, I will get to my point:
The fact is, hip-hop started off jacking beats. The artform started as people rapping over funk beats in the late 70's and various derivative instrumentals in the 80's. The artform continued its sample-based heritage into the late 90's, with people from Dre to Puffy using samples in hit song after hit song.
Then came the hammer came down. The artists who initially created the music from which the samples were taken (the sample-rights holders) started extorting the rappers. Prior to that, it was a happy medium of sorts. But around the late 90's - early 2000's, the rights-holders started asking for 80% or more of the royalty of a sample based song.
This greed killed it.
Producers then moved to techno synth-based hip-hop we are plagued with today in order to move away from the extortion of the rights-holders. The move worked from a business perspective, but -- in my opinion -- was bad for hip-hop as an artform.
The mixtape was an expression of hip-hop as an artform. Original rights-holders were never intended to receive a royalty. The mixtape was a form of promotion, something not to be taken as seriously as an album, but something that contained a similar gravitas as an album, for it was a pure expression of the artform.
As mixtapes became more prevalent, especially with 50 Cent's revolution of the mixtape from a something people rap over to the actual construction of an entire song from a direct and purely derivative work (someone else's complete beat) it became not only a promotional vehicle, but another way to give people a taste of what an artist's LP could feel like.
The difference between the mixtape and the LP during the 90's and early-mid 2000's was one thing... and one thing only:
Distribution.
The LP was distributed to record stores, department stores, CD clubs (remember Columbia House?), marketed and promoted by the record companies with large budgets and national press.
On the other hand, the mixtape was not distributed in this fashion and was available only to hardcore fans or people who had access to the mixtape from people promoting it on the streets and in clubs.
Today, I believe we've come to the point where the mixtape and the LP have the same weight not only artistically, but also through distribution. The internet changed everything and this is another example. Mixtapes can be marketed as easily as the LP via the internet -- and the fact that it's free, can give it a greater reach than the LP itself. With this type of easy promotion, the beats which were previously seen as harmless in the pre-broadband world of hip-hop are now of high value, because of their reach and the benefits reaped by artists like Mac Miller from a successful mixtape. Thus, because of a change in distribution, there has also been a change in the perception and consumption of the mixtape by the public.
Sure, it is within Finesse's legal right to sue, the $10 million mark tagged to the lawsuit is to create publicity and to force Mac Miller into a settlement. I doubt Finesse will get anything close to that, but what happens is that this precedent will hurt likely hurt hip-hop as an artform.
The question is, with such a precedent, where will hip-hop go next? More lame David Guetta-like tracks?
There needs to be change, and this lawsuit doesn't help the artform, although Finesse is on the right side of the law on this one.
First as Unorthodox said, there is a dangerous precedent set here. A similar precedent killed what was original sample-based hip-hop in the late 90's - early 2000's. Please read everything and hear me out, I will get to my point:
The fact is, hip-hop started off jacking beats. The artform started as people rapping over funk beats in the late 70's and various derivative instrumentals in the 80's. The artform continued its sample-based heritage into the late 90's, with people from Dre to Puffy using samples in hit song after hit song.
Then came the hammer came down. The artists who initially created the music from which the samples were taken (the sample-rights holders) started extorting the rappers. Prior to that, it was a happy medium of sorts. But around the late 90's - early 2000's, the rights-holders started asking for 80% or more of the royalty of a sample based song.
This greed killed it.
Producers then moved to techno synth-based hip-hop we are plagued with today in order to move away from the extortion of the rights-holders. The move worked from a business perspective, but -- in my opinion -- was bad for hip-hop as an artform.
The mixtape was an expression of hip-hop as an artform. Original rights-holders were never intended to receive a royalty. The mixtape was a form of promotion, something not to be taken as seriously as an album, but something that contained a similar gravitas as an album, for it was a pure expression of the artform.
As mixtapes became more prevalent, especially with 50 Cent's revolution of the mixtape from a something people rap over to the actual construction of an entire song from a direct and purely derivative work (someone else's complete beat) it became not only a promotional vehicle, but another way to give people a taste of what an artist's LP could feel like.
The difference between the mixtape and the LP during the 90's and early-mid 2000's was one thing... and one thing only:
Distribution.
The LP was distributed to record stores, department stores, CD clubs (remember Columbia House?), marketed and promoted by the record companies with large budgets and national press.
On the other hand, the mixtape was not distributed in this fashion and was available only to hardcore fans or people who had access to the mixtape from people promoting it on the streets and in clubs.
Today, I believe we've come to the point where the mixtape and the LP have the same weight not only artistically, but also through distribution. The internet changed everything and this is another example. Mixtapes can be marketed as easily as the LP via the internet -- and the fact that it's free, can give it a greater reach than the LP itself. With this type of easy promotion, the beats which were previously seen as harmless in the pre-broadband world of hip-hop are now of high value, because of their reach and the benefits reaped by artists like Mac Miller from a successful mixtape. Thus, because of a change in distribution, there has also been a change in the perception and consumption of the mixtape by the public.
Sure, it is within Finesse's legal right to sue, the $10 million mark tagged to the lawsuit is to create publicity and to force Mac Miller into a settlement. I doubt Finesse will get anything close to that, but what happens is that this precedent will hurt likely hurt hip-hop as an artform.
The question is, with such a precedent, where will hip-hop go next? More lame David Guetta-like tracks?
There needs to be change, and this lawsuit doesn't help the artform, although Finesse is on the right side of the law on this one.
Fade
The Beat Strangler
Administrator
illest o.g.
I agree with God. It's a fine line too because I was thinking, what about live shows? It happens all the time where a rapper spits a freestyle over someone else's instrumental - is this jacking? We all say "of course not!" but, the rapper IS making money from the show and used that instrumental. I know it's reaching but still, you get my point.
I do think that Finesse has a legal right to sue, however like God said, it won't help hip hop, especially given that hip hop is beat up right now from not being able to sample as much as before. This will only hurt it even more.
It would be nice if everyone could just sample like the good old days and make amazing music but I think a lot of the whole sampling/lawsuit thing came courtesy of pretty much one guy: P Diddy (Puff Daddy, Puff, whatever his name is now). As far as I'm concerned, when he dropped that Biggie tribute track "I'll be Missing You", that's what fucked everything up. Why? Because he didn't sample anything, he basically jacked the entire instrumental from the Police!
Think about it - that came out in 1997, up until then hip hop producers were banging out awesome tracks that were all sample-based. From 1998 and on things started going downhill. Call it a conspiracy if you want but the fact remains that Diddy single handedly ruined the golden era of hip hop. LOL. Thanks.
I do think that Finesse has a legal right to sue, however like God said, it won't help hip hop, especially given that hip hop is beat up right now from not being able to sample as much as before. This will only hurt it even more.
It would be nice if everyone could just sample like the good old days and make amazing music but I think a lot of the whole sampling/lawsuit thing came courtesy of pretty much one guy: P Diddy (Puff Daddy, Puff, whatever his name is now). As far as I'm concerned, when he dropped that Biggie tribute track "I'll be Missing You", that's what fucked everything up. Why? Because he didn't sample anything, he basically jacked the entire instrumental from the Police!
Think about it - that came out in 1997, up until then hip hop producers were banging out awesome tracks that were all sample-based. From 1998 and on things started going downhill. Call it a conspiracy if you want but the fact remains that Diddy single handedly ruined the golden era of hip hop. LOL. Thanks.
Id love to see a rhyme off, but I get the feeling that aint ever happening.
As for the Dan Bull thing, thats some fucked up shit, having his video taken off youtube for simply criticising Finesse.
Now that I dont agree with!!
The more I follow this case, the more Im leaning towards Dox's argument. Im still not sure a precident will be set, but the way things are going, I wont be surprised.
As for the Dan Bull thing, thats some fucked up shit, having his video taken off youtube for simply criticising Finesse.
Now that I dont agree with!!
The more I follow this case, the more Im leaning towards Dox's argument. Im still not sure a precident will be set, but the way things are going, I wont be surprised.
Ok...well...TECHNICALLY....you're not supposed to be making any money off of a mixtape that was set to be "for promotional use only". This is no different. The dude put it up on youtube, and from what I remember, you can't put the advertisements on your youtube if the original work is not your own.... It has nothing to do with launching a career, because it doesn't necessarily mean you're making money off of it. I could've pushed the envelope against Ebonics and Dipset for the beat they took from me.....and they didn't even dig the sample up and flip it....straight jacked the entire arrangement, drums n all. Fact is, that you could have a mixtape of 30 tracks with industry beats, and you're fine, until you start selling them and making money from it.
10 million is a shit load, but as G said....it's to make it as public as possible, because suing for $10k, wouldn't garner any attention. Well....I hope this gets done......Finesse at this point is probably saying "fuck hip-hop" and "lemme get this money"...
As stated, this isn't the first time he's been approached for jacking shit w/o giving the proper credit.....It's like he doesn't give a shit...like he's untouchable.....which is false.....there's a lot of goons out there...and he's not one of them.
10 million is a shit load, but as G said....it's to make it as public as possible, because suing for $10k, wouldn't garner any attention. Well....I hope this gets done......Finesse at this point is probably saying "fuck hip-hop" and "lemme get this money"...
As stated, this isn't the first time he's been approached for jacking shit w/o giving the proper credit.....It's like he doesn't give a shit...like he's untouchable.....which is false.....there's a lot of goons out there...and he's not one of them.
Lord Lav
Beatmaker
Big up to Lord Finesse true legend and big up to Mac Miller.
I guess this is all what you could call a quality problem for Mac Miller. It proves he's now big enough and wealthy enough, that people realise they can make some money from suing him.
If LF wasn't at least name checked by Mac that is poor etiquette, but I still kind of think these sort of things are all a bit null and void in this internet age of sharing. Where is the line here? Are other people that put up YouTube videos rhyming over other people's beats gonna get sued if they one day reach the big time? I suppose they probably will if the suing side sees the opportunity to make more money.
I wonder what the people that Lord Finesse sampled from thought about the whole thing?
I guess this is all what you could call a quality problem for Mac Miller. It proves he's now big enough and wealthy enough, that people realise they can make some money from suing him.
If LF wasn't at least name checked by Mac that is poor etiquette, but I still kind of think these sort of things are all a bit null and void in this internet age of sharing. Where is the line here? Are other people that put up YouTube videos rhyming over other people's beats gonna get sued if they one day reach the big time? I suppose they probably will if the suing side sees the opportunity to make more money.
I wonder what the people that Lord Finesse sampled from thought about the whole thing?