Live Sound, I need suggestions...

[dacalion]

I need suggestions, heres the deal...Im new to doing live sound but I know how to create a good solid sound from all my studio work.

The owner of the venue wants me to help with a full band...a keyboard, lead guitar, 2nd guitar, bass guitar, saxophone and drums.

Heres the problem...

The keyboardist wants to be the loudest of them all. We have given him the range that his volume should be set on his keyboard but during live sets but he continues to readjust it and it throws the overall sound off. He says he cant hear his monitors but his monitors are so loud that I can hear them at the soundboard (about 60ft away) with ease.

I have control over the keyboardists monitors at the mixingboard and everone else uses powered monitors.

The drummer is new to performing at live sets and he too has volume issues because he's not acustomed to mic'd drums.

Both guitars are good and stay in the pocket.

The saxophonist pretty much freestyles very well but every now and then, clashes with the guitars. Not often but just enough to be annoying.

The gear is all top of the line...32 channel mixing board, compressors, separate high/mid/low amps, speakers, crossover and eq's.

My question...as an outside entity to this band how do I help these guys who are stuck in their ways achieve a balanced sound without disrupting their flow/ attitudes?

 

[LDB]

Balancing the overall sound is your job. Keep doing it! The drummer will eventually get it....there's not too much you can do with them because they're new to performing live, you just have to ride the fader on them. I'd put the keyboard player that obviously has some hearing problems on a system to where if he/she is wearing an ear plug! That is done in live concerts all the time. Put them thru a amp with an earphone jack so they can no longer complain that they can't hear what they're playing!

 

[2GooD Productions]

The problem with most artists is ego's. Like LDB said, hook him up with some headphones.
Its up to you as the mixing engineer to place the seperate artists in the mix. You have to try and be diplomatic while getting it done your way. The mix must be balanced. You have to do your best to stop any particular artist trying to take centerstage. While they are a band they are all equal. They all need to be allowed to do their part.
As for sax clashing with guitars, is it key clash or frequency clash?
Id assume frequency clash, is the mixing desk automated? If so and the clashes arent frequent, you can do some on the fly equing. Or just try and filter the sax or the guitar at the offending frequency till you get the desired result across the whole track.
My live mixing skills are not very extensive, I was a stand in sound engineer at a show a little while back, and I think I did pretty well.
The concept is pretty much the same as mixing tracks on software, you just have to do it to suit the environment being played in.

 

[dacalion]

Balancing the overall sound is your job. Keep doing it! The drummer will eventually get it....there's not too much you can do with them because they're new to performing live, you just have to ride the fader on them. I'd put the keyboard player that obviously has some hearing problems on a system to where if he/she is wearing an ear plug! That is done in live concerts all the time. Put them thru a amp with an earphone jack so they can no longer complain that they can't hear what they're playing!

I was hoping there was another solution than riding the fader...I hate constantly adjusting ish...lol. but I know youre right. The keyboardist is playing the "volume game". He will slide the volume buttom down on the board which forces me to turn him up at the mixer then he slowly turns his volume back up giving him more volume than the original setting. I guess I'll be sliding the fader on him as well. He also says that he cant use headphones because he cant detect the key of the singer with them on. Its not that Im lazy, its that they have 8 singers on mics that Im constantly fighting with at the same time.

The problem with most artists is ego's. Like LDB said, hook him up with some headphones.
Its up to you as the mixing engineer to place the seperate artists in the mix. You have to try and be diplomatic while getting it done your way. The mix must be balanced. You have to do your best to stop any particular artist trying to take centerstage. While they are a band they are all equal. They all need to be allowed to do their part.
As for sax clashing with guitars, is it key clash or frequency clash?
Id assume frequency clash, is the mixing desk automated? If so and the clashes arent frequent, you can do some on the fly equing. Or just try and filter the sax or the guitar at the offending frequency till you get the desired result across the whole track.
My live mixing skills are not very extensive, I was a stand in sound engineer at a show a little while back, and I think I did pretty well.
The concept is pretty much the same as mixing tracks on software, you just have to do it to suit the environment being played in.

The saxophonist will hit both key and frequency clashes but like you guessed its mostly frequencies where the problem comes. I will try to fix it in the eq'ing but Im affraid that where it will help him in the clash, its gonna hurt him in the rest. Its like being in between a rock and a hard place with that.

You both have some good suggestions, Im gonna try them...I'll keep you all posted. As for the headphones, Im gonna suggest that they buy a wireless headphone monitoring system that they can adjust the mix in their own ears.

dac

 

[SirSedric]

The keyboardist is playing the "volume game". He will slide the volume buttom down on the board which forces me to turn him up at the mixer then he slowly turns his volume back up giving him more volume than the original setting.

The saxophonist will hit both key and frequency clashes but like you guessed its mostly frequencies where the problem comes. I will try to fix it in the eq'ing but Im affraid that where it will help him in the clash, its gonna hurt him in the rest. Its like being in between a rock and a hard place with that.

dac

I would recommend 'laying down the law'. Tell them that if they want you mixing, you have to be given control over what is going on and if they play with the settings... you look bad. They might just be amateurs with big egos, but you have to mold them into professionals like you.

The key player is gonna have to get over himself and realize that his job is to mix in with the band, not be the loudest... the sax player is too, maybe try some different miking techniques with the sax player... I've only miked a few sax players but they seem to prefer to have the higher frequencies accented and don't mind so much if the lows are attenuated...

 

[LDB]

I'm not recommending headphones Dac. Its a (one ear only) very small "ear phone plug", similar to what is used by news anchors, sports interviewers etc etc.

 

[dacalion]

I'm not recommending headphones Dac. Its a (one ear only) very small "ear phone plug", similar to what is used by news anchors, sports interviewers etc etc.

Hit me with a link so I'll know exactly what you're refering to.

dac

 

[thedreampolice]

Set them up with in ears and an Aviom system, that way they can all adjust there own levels. And it is no longer your problem.

 

[Formant024]

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/mixing-mastering/how-good-monitor-mixing-enhances-a-performance/

Read upon FOH mixing, that should help.

 

[eldiablo]

My question...as an outside entity to this band how do I help these guys who are stuck in their ways achieve a balanced sound without disrupting their flow/ attitudes?

you gotta do the math here. how long has this band been playing at this place. its all politics basically. if your new here and you don't want to rustle any feathers, i suggest to do the best you can without pissing anyone off. has anyone else been complaining about the sound. has the owner came to you directly and asked you to calm down the keyboards. if your getting paid and you don't want to lose your job, just take it easy, sit back and let the money roll in.

and also you could have a sit down with them before they start and let them know of some issues you have. its always easier when egos are concerned to make them think that the changes are their idea.

if they don't have a solid standing relationship with the owner and or manager then your pretty much alpha.

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

I've done a few live sound gigs before, and basically the Key's player is just something you are going to have to deal with.

Happened to me on one gig that I did with the guitarist, he was wanting me to push his level way above everybody else. I would push his level up and people would start getting up and walking away, so I just quit listening to him, he kept chewing me out while he was supposed to be playing, but once I got the levels right people started coming back and listening to the band.

In the end if something goes wrong with the show, it is all going to fall back on you. So you have to make the choice to either piss the band off or make the club owners happy and keep a job. I know there is always this big huge debate about sound quality and people don't care, but it's simply not the case, in a live sound situation sound quality is what matters, if the band sounds like crap then people aren't going to stick around and listen to them and as I said it's going to fall back on you.

 

[Formant024]

I dont get it, fix the sound, regardless of the owner or the band complaining. They'll mostly bitch that they cant hear themselves because the stage is to small so they're easily out of position. Either turn up through the aux to that monitor or kick him back in his spot lol. But still, this isnt like working in your studio because the setup has a mixer in it. If you have no clue about foh mixing then you have a lot to learn. Imo and from my experience, dont listen to anyone unless its another foh mixer because most cats will be talking shit our of their arse. If i were you id start out learning how to eq the mic's on stage. I found a tutorial which gives some good and simple explainations on how to set it all up.

http://members.cox.net/pasystem1/index.htm

 

[dacalion]

Yeah el, doc and Formant, you all have made some good points. I did have a sit down with these cats and it appears that it didnt do any good. The first set following the sit down went pretty good but the very next set went south...the keyboardist is determined to be the star attraction. He simply doesnt get the concept. There is so much noise that the people dont really hear the mistakes. But the owner and other musicians that visit do.

So I decided to do a live recording with an open mic at the soundboard so the keyboardist and drummer could here for themselves what they sounded like. When they heard it, it offended them...lol, mainly the keyboard player...so I said lets try it my way next time and they all agreed. So we'll see how that goes.

As you guys can see, there are several issues here, the owner is willing to fire these cats to get the sound right but Im trying to avoid that. i know they can do this but they are gonna have to trust me when I tell them something sounds bad. So keep the suggestions coming, Im seriously following you guys advice. Ive even spoken to the owner concerning 2 issues...the earpiece monitoring and I suggested the posibility of electic drums...he can beat them as hard as he wants but I can control his volume at the board. The owner doesnt want to invest until he sees that these guys are willing to make an effort first. I understand his view on that for obvious reasons...why spend the money if the job can be done with other, more disiplined musicians...So thats gonna be a final tactic type thing.

Once again, your suggestions are apprecited fo realz!

dac

 

[Translimits]

Try adding higher frequencies using a EQ filter for the piano keyboard. That way, he can play and the sound can travel directly to the crowd since the higher the hertz the more cycles per second to travel to the crowd. If he can't hear the difference, then I think he might need an ear check. As for the drum kits, you may want to adjust the EQ filter near the piano where the snare is what keeps the crowd going. With the bass, you don't have to worry so much because bass travels all directions but have it so that the crowd can feel it around their heads. Try EQing on the band and then use an upward compressor/expander, with a limiter to control the level of each instrument. You could also use a limiter for the pianist in case he decides to take the thunder from the band.

Another way is to rehearse and practice.

This is all by theory and I hope this helps.

 

[thedreampolice]

"band and then use an upward compressor/expander, with a limiter to control the level of each instrument. "

HUH?

Honestly dacalion welcome to live sound. I did it for years and there is always struggles like this. My advice is go in, don't get to involved, do your thing, get paid, go home and don't give it a second thought. You will NEVER EVER EVER NEVER win this discussion with the band. Let them do there thing and you just have to be on your toes with eq and fader riding but honestly thats your job. It will feel less overwhelming soon.

 

[Formant024]

^^^ Yeah, thats what i meant, disregard the band and just sound check em. The only reason i see why he cant hear shit is probably because he's out of range of the floor monitor or keyboard monitor lol. All it takes is good mic placement, eq and mixer. You dont need compression at all lol. FOH mixing is a bitch when you start out, it comes down to a lot of experience to know how to deal with an environment because each one is different. You have deal with room eq first before you can be at ease with mixing,eq'ing the band. Also, is it a small place or big, what pa is there, is that big aswell ? Is it to big lol. Does the band have a rider for you ? How many floor monitor are there ? are there any ? lol

 

[dacalion]

Also, is it a small place or big, what pa is there, is that big aswell ? Is it to big lol. Does the band have a rider for you ? How many floor monitor are there ? are there any ? lol

The eq'ing is on point, I made some minor adjustments but overall the enviroment handles the freqs. very well considering.

I dont know the square footage, Im guessing that it will hold around 600 people comfortably.

The pa is (2) 4-way x-overs (h/m/l/sb), (6) Amps. Speakers (4) 18" subs, (8) mid/low bass speakers, (4) mid range speakers, (8) tweeter clusters(4 tweets per cluster).

Monitoring- 4 on stage Monitors, 3 powered monitors @ musicians(2 guitars,1 bass)...The keyboard and drum monitors are controlled @ the soundboard.

We use the compression/limiting for the sound quality on video's, CDs and the speakers in the owners office.

dac

 

[eldiablo]

you might want to raise the keyboards monitor up closer to his head. that would solve his volume issues. turn him up in his monitor, and down in the overall mix.