Layering kick drums...

[Iron Keys]

Kinda curious about this one... Now I've often heard lots of people always say 'yeah if you want a good kick drum just layer like three kicks together', but I've also read somewhere that this is a rookie mistake, and actually not the best thing to do due to things such as phase cancellation and such stuff, and that it's much better to find one good drum sample and mix it well.


Seeing as I'm always seeing people chatting about layering drums, I thought it'd be interesting to hear some of your thoughts and such on it.


---
Love

~Iron Keys

 

[JustRipe]

Kinda curious about this one... Now I've often heard lots of people always say 'yeah if you want a good kick drum just layer like three kicks together', but I've also read somewhere that this is a rookie mistake, and actually not the best thing to do due to things such as phase cancellation and such stuff, and that it's much better to find one good drum sample and mix it well.


Seeing as I'm always seeing people chatting about layering drums, I thought it'd be interesting to hear some of your thoughts and such on it.


---
Love

~Iron Keys

idk really if its"rookie" or not but i sometimes layer my drums, kicks snares or hats whatever, but all depending on how it goes with my samples and if my kicks dont become too strong and distorted or not..

 

[UNORTHODOX]

I layer for 1) tone 2) Weight and 3) snap/thud etc.

Sometimes, in busy mixes, one kick will not be able to get you there, so you gotta layer.
You just have to be mindful of phase, and clashing tones of the kicks as well as clashing kicks with the key of the song and the mix of the production.

 

[LouBez]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Art-Drum-Layering-Eddie-Bazil/dp/1906005109/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308408863&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Art of Drum Layering (9781906005108): Eddie Bazil: Books[/ame]

buy that book....learn it...it will change your life

 

[UNORTHODOX]

I was actually thinking about that book when I posted, good stuff in there

 

[LouBez]

yeah that author has some other good books too...That book taught me alot not only about drum layering but mixing sounds in general...

 

[Iron Keys]

Thanks for the responses guys.

And yeah, I'll often layer an accoustic kick with the weight of an 808 for the 'thud'.

I find it hard finding good drum samples

 

[Kontents]

I've also read somewhere that this is a rookie mistake, and actually not the best thing to do due to things such as phase cancellation and such stuff, and that it's much better to find one good drum sample and mix it well.
~Iron Keys[/b]

I would think that is a false statement. If you take three samples and mix em down and export it as a new sample... then its only one sample.

You have to approach sound like a cook in the kitchen... some stuff tastes good when mixed together.... some taste like crap... experiment and make dinner.

 

[thedreampolice]

You you take three kick samples and mix them wrong there can be phase issues. That book is fantastic and will tell you how to do it properly.

 

[Sucio]

Yes, you do have some phase cancellation, if you layer the wrong ones....

I've layered kicks before but didn't deal with it....

It usually happens with 808 kicks....with the tail making that phasing sound....

But the best is to get one really good kick drum and getting that punch you want, to eliminate the chance of getting that phasing issue.

 

[Kontents]

You you take three kick samples and mix them wrong there can be phase issues. That book is fantastic and will tell you how to do it properly.

Sounds like a reason to learn to mix then. If you cant find something that works, then you have to make it yourself.

Bacon.

 

[thedreampolice]

ha ha, BACON is right!

 

[dacalion]

I think it all depends on what you want personally. You may desire a layered kick with some phase issues, not to the point of sounding bad within your song (hopefully you wouldn't use it if it did) but if it works, I say go for it. I like being creative and testing new things so thats my recommendation for layering, if it sounds good to you then do it, don't let a book or somebody elses rules stop you from trying new things. Use the book and any rules as a reference but don't treat it like is the LAW!

 

[Formant024]

imo, cant get delivery with one kick -> you're doing it wrong.

its all in the mix

 

[dacalion]

I think layering is kinda taking the easy way out if you can't achieve what you're looking for using a single kick plus some processing but I don't feel like theres anything wrong with layering. Lets call it the "freedom of production"...lol.

 

[DJ Excellence]

You can definitely do it ... just don't overdo it! I used to do that a lot ... not so much these days since I got more kits and breaks; can always find the right kick, snare, hat and play with EQ/compression.

 

[wizard]

iron key its all on how u feel how it sounds
but i use to put 3 snares and 3 kicks together and save them as 1 sound
but i found that its a mess to mix down and a lot of frequencies clashing
i've actually stop layering my drumz just last week after learning about the frequencies and dynamics i found wit a splash of parallel compression proper eqing and proper transient settings on the decay and attack and release time works just as good as layer drumz do! yup i couldn't believe it either at all
im an old school producer that use to layer everything but ive also realized as well when u do decide to layer a kick don't just layer any kick and think that's it u have to make sure it match's and doesn't clashing with the other frequencies in the end i still love layering my drumz lol

 

[Step Soprano]

Honestly, your best bet is to mic up a live drum set... particularly on the kick drum. I prefer to do a d112 inside the hole on the kick, and a yamaha sub kick mic close to the front of the kick drum(as close as you can get to the face of the kick without touching it). When you play the kick, the d112 should feed one channel on your console, with the yamaha subkick feeding a separate channel on your console. NOW, for a trick most people don't use that can dramatically increase the quality of your kick, you flip the phase on one of hte two kick channels(does not matter which one, but only one of the D112 or the subkick) While some may think this could cause phase issues, it actually does the opposite. Instead of getting the hollow low end you get from out of phase drums, somehow(don't ask me how, I know how to do it, but I have no idea why it works) the kick will hit massively harder. Just a few tips that have worked for me. Showed Waka Flaka that shit on a song I mixed for him a few weeks back... now he won't let me mix the drums without doing this. Without a doubt, it's slightly more time consuming, but the outcome is incredible.

 

[subaqueous]

Here is a write up from an article I posted a while back about drum layering.... Hope you find it helpful.

To add a big sound to your drums or a larger then life sound a great technique to know is layering. By adding 2 or more layers to create your kick you can add more thump and so on.

Kicks
To get a solid kick I like to have 2 or more samples. I find a good sub bass, can be an 808 or other, and have that eq'ed for just the lo end. Then I find a good kick with an attack and have that on top. I like adding more than 2 so that I can obtain a sound that doesn't come off as digitally created. By dialing in these samples you will then have a uique and powerful kick.

Snares/Claps
Most the time I do roughly the same thing with my snares. Start with a sound you like, like a clap, and layer it with a snare hit or rim shot. That will give it more punch. You can also layer it with natural sounds for more of an Eskmo sound. I generly have 2-3 layers of sounds and then adjust there velocity, volume, over the course of the song to make it modulate and sound like it is changing. Also adding a good convolution reverb will go a long way.

Hats
You should use at least 2 per each sequence of hats, otherwise you get this empty/mono/solo kinda sound. Layer your hats! A slight bit of reverb and/or delay will go a long way as well. With hats you can layer fun sounds as well like glass breaking, a glitch sound, or other fun abnormal sounds for electronic music. Keep in mind the hats are in the high end and don't go to much in the mids.

Some Basic Techniques for Layering
Here are some quick tips and tricks to keep in mind with layering:

Pitch up and down the same sample. For example take sample one and pitch it down, then take the same sample in another channel and pitch it up. Try this with already layered samples, by exporting your multi layered samples then reimporting.

Create Stereo Width - Simply pan the different samples across the sound stage. This gives a real feeling of width with minimal effort. Another route is to duplicate a sound and pan the two new versions hard left and right. Any difference in treatment to these sounds will now create a widened stereo image. A really simply way to create this widening effect without colouring the sound is to introduce a small amount of delay to one side. Even a few milliseconds can make a difference here.

EQing is a big key.Know where each sample is mainly taking up in frequencies and layer sounds that use up different frequency ranges and eq them together.

 

[UNORTHODOX]

Foreal foreal, you dont need to layer at all if your sounds are pristine and sharp. Like Step said, sample your own, hand-me-down samples will get you in trouble. If you need more than 3 comps EQS and reverb etc (Unless you are drum modeling) you have the wrong sound or a crap file.

I worked at a studio for about 7yrs, sampled 3 drum sets about 2 times each. The sounds i got from that not only gave me dope sounds sonicly, but gave me dope sounds quality wise.
I spent a good part of 4 yrs DLing Gigs and gigs of drums from every single inch of the internet (I guarantee you I have every drum sample there is available on these webbed streets lol) and almost NONE compare to a custom sampled kik, snare, hat etc. Spend the 100$ for stu time, pay a drummer 40$ and spend a hour in a studio MultiMicing each specific drum. Then have the drummer play some rhythms for 10min and let him go crazy for 20. Trust me, the files you'll get will be audiotory orgasm if you are a drum/kik addict like me.

Or you can wait till I finish my album and drop my drum kit with it lol