Just listening to the original samples...Blueprint 1 is..

[RigorMortis]

both of you need to get off my dick

Let me hop on there too, a shame i missed this one out from the beginning.

Timberland who you hated on mind you had one of the most complex styles of any so-called hip hop producer!!!

Yo man that says more about your knowledge of hiphopproducers then anything about the so called skills of Timberland.

And if you are talking about struggle, guys in the underground are struggling way harder. Keeping their music real without changing or choosing for an easy win formula. Cause there is almost no hiphop in the charts, the things out there are pop.

Dont be calling shit wack if you dont know it, at least I take the trouble to listen to shit before judging it.
And this aint about musical preferences, too lazy to look for more out there, all fine by me, but if you only listen to one part of hiphop dont be trying to oversee the whole, cause in all fairness you cant.
And it dont matter when you started, if you are staying at the same place...

 

[jaydub23510]

Yo man that says more about your knowledge of hiphopproducers then anything about the so called skills of Timberland.


I know Tim personally fool!!! Also UNDERGROUND DOES NOT MEAN GOOD, COMMERCIAL IS NOT ALL BAD!!!! DUmmies at one time Jay was an underground cat!! UNDERGROUND simply means you have not made it to the masses yet, SHIT GRAPH is the BEST UNDERGROUND cat then, Red Cafe aint bad either!!! I fuck with DMP, Crime Line, JOE MAFIA & WU SYNDICATE mad crews ya'll have never heard about, that don't mean they good!! I'm not gonna spend my 10-15 dollars to see if I'm gonna like this new group, besides that's what mixtapes are for, I support my local artists, and the cats I've peeped on mixtapes, that's how I buy hip hop, occasionally somebody like Immortal Technique, Aesop Rock, I might see something on them in the source and I might give them a listen!! It seems to me white guys try to big up they little rappers and producers and make them to be the best out there, come on man, you mean to tell me over millions of people are stupid for thinking Jay-Z is one of the best, and Timberland is not good, you don't have to buy they shit, but at least be honest with yourselves and give them props!! I"m finished ya'll can finish on without me, ya'll disappointed me with this one!!! Streetwize good topic you were right from the beginning!!

 

[WingsOfAnAngel]

Let me hop on there too, a shame i missed this one out from the beginning

HAHA LOL! :lol:

WORD IS BOND! :dj:

 

[Streetwize]

y'all act as if jay wasnt a struggling artist

jay was grindin and hustlin, gettin rejected by every fuckin label there is in the industry and him and damon dash created their own label

what was the song that broke jay really into the industry....'aint no nigga'

thats not even commercial, its off one of the most classic hiphop albums of all time, reasonable doubt

wings, you're a hater fa real. i respect u and your music but your music views on jayz are wrong. same with nas

so if aesop rock EVER breaks it into commercial, would u stop likin him cos hes givin a 'bad name' by going commercial?

aesop is only lyrics, his voice is wack, his delivery sucks, his flow is average. and thats not me hatin on underground kats, i love underground hiphop, shit im an UG hiphop producer tryna get into the industry and i worked with underground kats.

y'all are just hatin on jay.

as well as that, go to ANY underground emcee and i GUARANTEE they will put jayz in their top 5 minimum

u think its that easy to sell 40 million records + over 8 years? hell no

if u cant respect jayz as a hiphop artist, then ur more the fool

 

[jaydub23510]

wings, you're a hater fa real. i respect u and your music but your music views on jayz are wrong. same with nas



Thanks for that man, that's the truest statement in this thread, I 2nd that!!! And don't think cause we have these lil heated (sometimes) debates over here in the general topics I will give you bad reviews in the showcase, I'm not like that, you can bad mouth my beats and I'll still give you an honest opinion on your stuff, I have before, YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOOD WHEN PEOPLE THAT DON'T LIKE YOU, STILL SAYS THEY LIKE YOUR MUSIC!!! When I listen to your tracks I'm not thinking about these forums, I'm trying to get into your grooves, just thought I would throw that in there, I think a lot of people are scared to really speak up for they selves and beliefs in fear someone will try to come at their music!!!

 

[afriquedeluxe]

i gota say, blueprint was indcredible man but not as good as reasonable doubt. i also agree with timbaland doing some heavy production on the 'deliverance' album by bubba spurx, it was my favourite album that summer.

 

[Streetwize]

yeh i think reasonable doubt is jayz best album, thats my fave album of all time

dead presidents is the illest jayz song imo, beat is disgustin

 

[MarkN]

I see your point wings ! And i don't think you should like the same as everybody else but i would have thought an seemingly intelligent producer such as yourself would have resisted the its popular so its wack stance so many 'underground heads' take ! Too many people get caught up on you should listen to this or you shouldn't listen to that ! Im not with any of that bullshit some music is popular and some isnt often there is a good reason as in the popular music is good and the non popular stuff is poorly made and simply surviving on the its 'underground' excuse ! Sumtimes that not the case and underground stuff does deserve more credit that it get but thats life man !
I can't believe in one post you are going to discredit the achievements of jayz in making the blueprint well not just jay but kanye west and just blaze too the whole album is amazing and woz revolutionary when it woz released ! And to then say timbaland is overrated is ridiculous he's been doing his thing for years has a style all of his own and has become one of the number 1 producers in the world not just hip hop people go to him looking for hits and he delivers because he understands music and wot works and wot doesnt if you can't see and appreciate this mans talent thats a real shame imo !
I think too many people get caught up in image when deciding what music to like rather than actually listening to it, too many preconception if you like i make music i like and when i listen to music i listen to what i want not what gets me respect or woteva that bullshits about Ill listen to sum jayz or i'll listen to sum wu-tang or sum dre or woteva and if chingy makes a god track i'll listen to that for it being a good track im not gonna worry about people hating on sum1 because of sum bullshit mainstream underground !
People wonder why 'hip hop ' is dying is it so much of a suprise when people have arguments like this every has different tastes but don't hate on sum1 when what they have done has been that influential on todays culture let alone just music !

IMO the bubba sparxxx album woz brilliant and i think suprised a lot of people timbalands beats for it were crazy !
The blueprint woz a classic album not jays best as that is reasonable doubt which is an amzing album !

 

[WingsOfAnAngel]

wings, you're a hater fa real. so if aesop rock EVER breaks it into commercial, would u stop likin him cos hes givin a 'bad name' by going commercial?
aesop is only lyrics, his voice is wack, his delivery sucks, his flow is average. and thats not me hatin on underground kats, i love underground hiphop, shit im an UG hiphop producer tryna get into the industry and i worked with underground kats.
if u cant respect jayz as a hiphop artist, then ur more the fool

1. i ain't no hater. sorry, excuse me, PARDON!

2. if aesop breaks into the commercial sphere, good for him. i ain't gonna judge him for that; i will judge him by his music and his acts. as i have told you on MSN, i did not like his latest album (BAZOOKA TOOTH). i thought it was rather weak (hardly 3\5). am i a hater?
in my opinion, BAZOOKA TOOTH lacks MAGIC. aesop's vocal style, all tongue-tripping speed, over-enunciation, and booming declaration, was EXTREMELY appropriate to his esoteric stories and metaphors, as if he were some sort of priest or soothsayer recounting the history of his people around the fire. all that is not present in BAZOOKA TOOTH.
anyway, back to our topic: aesop is a true artist. in the full sense of the word. i aint' sayin' that jay is not; he's just not in aesop's caliber.
and by the way - his voice is not wack and his delivery, as i've said, is nothing short but amazing.

3. i do respect jay, not (exactly) as a hip hop artist, but more as a ghetto child who reached greatness thanks to his talent and labor.

4. "It seems to me white guys try to big up they little rappers and producers and make them to be the best out there" - what the fuck does it have to do with race and skin color?
this is totally wrong; an ABSURD i'd say! race\sex\skin color has nothing to do with this. it's all about talent, hard work and so on. do you claim that i ain't got soul cuz i'm white? maybe the next step is calling me a wigger (those who don't know: The term wigger or whigger is used to describe a Caucasian who emulates urban-African American culture)?
this is the problem with those who think GHETTO; the world has other colors, not just black or white or yellow or shit knows what. it's all down to the single individual rather than the group. each one of us is different\unique\special.

5. i respect ya'll and your opinions. but i say: LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD!

 

[jaydub23510]

yeh i think reasonable doubt is jayz best album, thats my fave album of all time

dead presidents is the illest jayz song imo, beat is disgustin

In a previous thread I said I've lost just about my entire cd collection, I had my Jay Z cds and Scarface cd collection at home, and since I'm regulated now to about 14 mixtapes and my Jay and Scar collections, also CNN and Mobb deep Ive been listening to a lot of shit from the 90's like 94 thru 97, I'm gonna go back and cop every classic that came from like 92 to today, and that will be my new cd collection


but how real is CNN(War Report), MOBB DEEP's (The Infamous), Reasonable Doubt, Nas Illmatic, 50 cent Get Rich, this is my hip hop bread and butter right thur, it seems an mcs first cd is his best cause hip hop is all about having your own style and originality therefore, your newest cd to the market, or your DEBUT CD is your whole life worth of material, like Kanye said, this cd took his first 20 something years to produce so naturally if youre good then that first disc will be your best, cause noone knows who you are yet!!! I respect Jay for not being broke and being able to do something he didn't have to do just because he loved it, JAY loved hip hop how else could a man with at least 800,000 dollars walk away (not completely though) from the game to be an M.C.therefore your contempt of Jay Z is appalling to me, and makes me wonder your real motives, now 50 cent on the other hand, we all loved him 2-3 yrs ago when they were dropping the G-Unit mixtapes every week, but once he blew and abandoned us mixtappers we think he sucks now, true maybe but I think a lot of people hate him cause of his personality, but the music is good, not the best but good!

 

[WingsOfAnAngel]

I see your point wings ! And i don't think you should like the same as everybody else but i would have thought an seemingly intelligent producer such as yourself would have resisted the its popular so its wack stance so many 'underground heads' take !

i've never said that, c'mon! please don't put words in my mouth! all i've said is: COMMERCIALISM (itself) is wrong. i have nothing against commercial\mainstream music as is. i even like some of 'em tracks (2 PAC- THUGZ MANSION & DMX - SLIPPIN' to name a few). music would not be the same without people who took the commercial direction.
as i ALWAYS KEEP SAYING: GOOD MUSIC IS GOOD MUSIC. PERIOD.
but in my !!HUMBLE!!! opinion, all the people you guys mentioned are nothing special.
i'm not disrespecting them or anything, just saying that there are better musicians.

jesus christ! i wish i haven't started this debate at all. forget this and keep listening to your ish! everything goes! my only wish was to open your horizons...

 

[MarkN]

i've never said that, c'mon! please don't put words in my mouth! all i've said is: COMMERCIALISM (itself) is wrong. i have nothing against commercial\mainstream music as is. i even like some of 'em tracks (2 PAC- THUGZ MANSION & DMX - SLIPPIN' to name a few). music would not be the same without people who took the commercial direction.
as i ALWAYS KEEP SAYING: GOOD MUSIC IS GOOD MUSIC. PERIOD.
but in my !!HUMBLE!!! opinion, all the people you guys mentioned are nothing special.
i'm not disrespecting them or anything, just saying that there are better musicians.

jesus christ! i wish i haven't started this debate at all. forget this and keep listening to your ish! everything goes! my only wish was to open your horizons...

Yea i respect what your saying but its not about people taking a commercial direction with their music often people make music they they like now sumtimes millions of other people will like sumtimes only a few thousand will like it for example !
Like you said good music is good music and if you don't like jayz or timbalands stuff thats fine but your should respect them especially being a producer yourself and a very good one at that ! Im sure jayz wouldnt claim to be the best musician in the world thats not his aim but his music is still sumthing special !
The last paragraph of your post though i know what your trying to do as you put open horizans but the thing is you trying to say listen aesop rock not jayz is no different to sum1 saying listen to jayz not aesop ! Whos to really say whos better its personal preference im not gonna come on here and say man you should really stop listenting to aesop rock hes underground as hell its sum chingy you wana be listening to ! Its the same thing ! Lets just be happy there is soo much choice around these days hey ?

 

[jaydub23510]

i do respect jay, not (exactly) as a hip hop artist, but more as a ghetto child who reached greatness thanks to his talent and labor


Listen to yourself you sound like a fucking racist man, People like WINGS are killing hip hop!!what you fail to realize is that 2pac DMX hell even Jay in the beginning didn't try to be commercial they were trying to BE GOOD!! THat's the REWARD FOR making good MUSIC, people will buy it!!!! Tell your favorite MCS to get there own LABEL sell dope, pussy, liquor do whatever the fuck they have to do to get some fucking money and put they name on a billboard or magazine or something man, your argument holds no weight man, get over yourself and them lil punnanny rappers you mentioned, my local cats like MIKE LORD, BLACK & DECKER will eat them for dinner!

 

[MarkN]

ahhh come on man give him a break don't just start stuff theres nothing racist in what wings said if anything its completely anti racist and he says he respects what jayz has done coming up thru the ghetto and bettering himself and making sumthing of himself !
Wings isnt killing hip hop ignorant statements like that however are why does race have to come up again and again have we moved nowhere in hundreds of years ! : (

I don't even agree with wings on this subject but your post woz still stupid and pointless come on man !

 

[Streetwize]

I can't believe in one post you are going to discredit the achievements of jayz in making the blueprint well not just jay but kanye west and just blaze too the whole album is amazing and woz revolutionary when it woz released ! And to then say timbaland is overrated is ridiculous he's been doing his thing for years has a style all of his own and has become one of the number 1 producers in the world not just hip hop people go to him looking for hits and he delivers because he understands music and wot works and wot doesnt if you can't see and appreciate this mans talent thats a real shame imo !

this is EXACTLY the point i was tryna make

this is a perfect explanation for wings and all the other dudes to read

 

[StressWon]

Imma add my two pennies:

I loved Jay the first time I heard him on the "Original Flavor" joint, "Ya know it". I was like,,,"Who the hell is that!?!" And I rocked that song all the time. Jay is a GREAT MC without a doubt,,,when he wants. I agree on both sides of this arguement,,,to an extent.

When Jay first stepped on the scene, he was all about lyrical skills and wordplay,,,plus he rapped fast as hell switchin up his style. That's dope. But that don't sell no records. Yeah he was Underground because he didn't hit it big,,,yet. But don't confuse the Underground term. There's two different types I think,,,,A) Waitin for the big deal and just makin independent records and B) Stayin independent because you won't allow some corporate record label change up ya whole art form.

These cats waitin for that Commercial record Label Contract do end up lazy. And I can say that from an MC standpoint. In the Industry, if ya wanna sell records,,,ya need somethin that would be catchy as Hell. A "Club Banger" if ya will. Lets look at that term,"Club Banger"...Thats a joint that makes everyone in a club go Bananas. Right? Cool. But is there a need for lyrical skill for this type of record? No. Evidence? How many "Club Bangers" does Puff have under his belt? Exactly.

As an MC, ya gotta show some kind of skill, but as most of these cats with these big deals,,,ya just get lazy. Get a Timbaland/Kanye/Neptune/Swizz/ etc track, drop some mediocre rhymes on it, with the right maketing,,,,,ya got Platinum status. Is that Hip Hop? NO!

Jay is guilty of doin this. On the Blueprint, he did step his game up since Reasonable Doubt, but not like he should of. Did i like Blueprint,,,it was cool. I have the CD.(Bootleg) As far as the best album either rhyme-wise or production-wise. NO. Is it up there,,,,yeah.


Bottom line is "Different Strokes for different folks". When I listen to Hip Hop I wanna think, I wanna hear some crazy, versatile lyrics,,,,,,but ya only get that from Underground cats unfortunately. I don't like my Hip Hop watered down and simplified.

My 2 cents,
1

 

[jaydub23510]

ahhh come on man give him a break don't just start stuff theres nothing racist in what wings said if anything its completely anti racist and he says he respects what jayz has done coming up thru the ghetto and bettering himself and making sumthing of himself !
Wings isnt killing hip hop ignorant statements like that however are why does race have to come up again and again have we moved nowhere in hundreds of years ! : (

I don't even agree with wings on this subject but your post woz still stupid and pointless come on man !

It's an undertone to his posts you probably won't pick up on!! I know for a fact it's a dividing issue the whole UNDERGROUND VS MAINSTREAM, your favorite MC wishes he could sell a million freaking records, now what makes me respect him is, IS He Not going to sell out to do it, THATS Why I still fuck with the MOBB, they werent going to compromise to sell out!!! Same with PUBLIC ENEMY Back in the day!!



WHO FUCKS WITH FAM_LAY, he will be mainstream artist with an underground flow, just cause he got the NEPPIES behind him, you underground cats will hate on him for that!

 

[Streetwize]

i didnt say it was the best album production wise..like u said its 'up there'

imo, best produced album is dre - 2001 or dre - chronic

but we're not talking about that, we r talking about jayz - blueprint 1 and that is a classic, rhymes and beats

 

[Streetwize]

and lemme add

to say jayz KILLS HIPHOP is fuckin absurd

hes one of the rappers that has revolutionised the industry

 

[StressWon]

I think "Low End Theory" is one of the Best Production Albums!