It's Just a Matter of Time...

[konceptG]

well analog gear = hardware so i dont see your point... but even hardware romplers and VAs sound better to me than softsynths... and yes i understand that they are just computers inside of hardware but they still sound more full than softsynths.. i dont wanna argue but people will say all day that softsynths sound as good or better than hardware but the music doesnt support their claim.. i still hear the same thin stuff ... now i agree that softsynths/samplers can and do sound good and have their use in production, but what i dont agree with is the whole idea of doing "everything" on computer and having it sound equivalent to using quality hardware pices. maybe one day but not anytime soon. someone mentioned just blaze and jdilla... those guys have more hardware than i would know what to do with. yeah blaze uses logic (for conveince, not sound and he admitted to it in an interview) but he also runs his sounds through an ssl board... and there is no denying his pre-logic work sounds fuller and punches harder.. listen to kingdom come's sonics then back it up to blueprint,dynasty era.. way punchier drums and livelier sound in the blueprint/dynasty era.the ears dont lie.

No. Analog may be hardware, but it's the way that hardware produces sounds that differs from everything else. I've owned a few Sequential boards in my time (Prophet V, Prophet 10, Multi-Trak, and MAX) and the true analog boards have a VST counterpart, NI's Pro52/Pro53. While you can program Pro53 precicely the same way you can a real Prophet V, side-by-side you'll always be able to tell the two apart. The difference is that the Prophet used voltage controlled ocsillators and they were imperfect. The oscillators were prone to drift off frequency (this is true of ALL VCO based analogs) and that helped to create unique harmonics that really can't be recreated in software. In fact, many performers have noted that patches created on old analogs often don't sound the same from board to board due to ever so slight differences in the underlying hardware. It can also be said that a patch created on one machine might not sound exactly the same way on that very same machine depending on the temperature of the room! These are things that VA cannot faithfully recreate. What software CAN fairly accurately recreate are those analog boards that were based on digitally controlled oscillators (usually Curtis/CEM DCO's ans necessary in order to implement MIDI) which were not prone to such drift. Therefore, of my old SCI boards, only the Multi-Trak and MAX can have near perfect software versions should someone choose to write it.

Hardware romplers and VA's only sound as good as the software that controls them allows them to. Romplers rely on the same stuff that software samplers do: Good samples and good d/a conversions. If Roland were to take the same sample data from a Fantom and write software to playback that sample data in the same fashion as a Fantom, it will sound precicely the same as a Fantom. Proof of this is seen in the way that the Korg M1 sounds identical to the Korg Legacy Digital Collection's M1 VST (I've owned the Korg M3R in the past, which was nothing more than the M1 minus the keyboard and sequencer). It's so identical, that the VST can even import patch data and sysex created for an M1. The same holds true for the Wavestation VST; it sounds identical and can use the data meant for the hardware piece.

As for the stuff sounding "fuller" or drums sounding "punchy", that's up to the engineer for the most part but could also be on the producer for changing drum samples and whatnot. The whole "xxx sounds fuller" thing is really subjective. As I've said, using the M1 VST or keyboard gives you an identical sound. If it sounded "full" on the keyboard, then it'll sound the same on the VST. Since we really don't have access to the same sample set that Roland and the like uses for their contemporary keyboards and modules, we have to rely on other sources for your samples and therefore cannot truthfully compare the two. Roland, however, does have a huge series of sample CD's for the old S760 sampler and Kontakt can read them, patch data and all. I would like to see the results of a side-by-side comparison using a real S760 and a PC with Kontakt using the exact same samples. I can pretty much guarantee that they'll sound the same OR Kontakt may actually expose flaws in the samples, especially if the PC is outfitted with an audio card with superior dac's to those found on the S760.

 

[LDB]

^^^^^^^^Dude knows his shit! Engineering and mixing plays a very big part in how the final production sounds. They don't pay the best engineers that "big" money for nothing. The phattest tracks you've ever heard probably didn't sound no where near that thick or good straight out of the gear. Unless you were in the studio when they tracked it you have no idea what the initial sound was. If that vintage gear sounded so big off the rip why would you employ a mixing or mastering engineers in the first place? Those guys work miracles most of the time!

 

[Ash Holmz]

No. Analog may be hardware, but it's the way that hardware produces sounds that differs from everything else. I've owned a few Sequential boards in my time (Prophet V, Prophet 10, Multi-Trak, and MAX) and the true analog boards have a VST counterpart, NI's Pro52/Pro53. While you can program Pro53 precicely the same way you can a real Prophet V, side-by-side you'll always be able to tell the two apart. The difference is that the Prophet used voltage controlled ocsillators and they were imperfect. The oscillators were prone to drift off frequency (this is true of ALL VCO based analogs) and that helped to create unique harmonics that really can't be recreated in software. In fact, many performers have noted that patches created on old analogs often don't sound the same from board to board due to ever so slight differences in the underlying hardware. It can also be said that a patch created on one machine might not sound exactly the same way on that very same machine depending on the temperature of the room! These are things that VA cannot faithfully recreate. What software CAN fairly accurately recreate are those analog boards that were based on digitally controlled oscillators (usually Curtis/CEM DCO's ans necessary in order to implement MIDI) which were not prone to such drift. Therefore, of my old SCI boards, only the Multi-Trak and MAX can have near perfect software versions should someone choose to write it.

Hardware romplers and VA's only sound as good as the software that controls them allows them to. Romplers rely on the same stuff that software samplers do: Good samples and good d/a conversions. If Roland were to take the same sample data from a Fantom and write software to playback that sample data in the same fashion as a Fantom, it will sound precicely the same as a Fantom. Proof of this is seen in the way that the Korg M1 sounds identical to the Korg Legacy Digital Collection's M1 VST (I've owned the Korg M3R in the past, which was nothing more than the M1 minus the keyboard and sequencer). It's so identical, that the VST can even import patch data and sysex created for an M1. The same holds true for the Wavestation VST; it sounds identical and can use the data meant for the hardware piece.

As for the stuff sounding "fuller" or drums sounding "punchy", that's up to the engineer for the most part but could also be on the producer for changing drum samples and whatnot. The whole "xxx sounds fuller" thing is really subjective. As I've said, using the M1 VST or keyboard gives you an identical sound. If it sounded "full" on the keyboard, then it'll sound the same on the VST. Since we really don't have access to the same sample set that Roland and the like uses for their contemporary keyboards and modules, we have to rely on other sources for your samples and therefore cannot truthfully compare the two. Roland, however, does have a huge series of sample CD's for the old S760 sampler and Kontakt can read them, patch data and all. I would like to see the results of a side-by-side comparison using a real S760 and a PC with Kontakt using the exact same samples. I can pretty much guarantee that they'll sound the same OR Kontakt may actually expose flaws in the samples, especially if the PC is outfitted with an audio card with superior dac's to those found on the S760.

i hear ya, but i think we are arguing the same thing ... "superior" is a matter of perspective... are the dacs on a digi 002 better than an sp1200? .. techinically spec wise yes.. yet drums from an sp have that sound to them... hardware is imperfect, noisy, and distorted (in a good way)and thats why its sounds "fuller" to my ears (again its a subjective thing), and two identical samples probably won't sound the same, because u are using a diffrent dac on your sampler than ur computer. software operates one way the same over and over and over agin..its a program an equation.. hardware is combination of many diffrent aspects, power supply,voltages,cabling,tempature,type of metal,outside interference any of which could put inconsistenicies in the sound..... the ssl duende uses the same alogortyhm as the c200 console, does it sound close? yes. does it sound the same? hell no...there are plenty of plugins that use the exact same algortyhms as there hardware counterparts but they sound inferior. by saying a softsynth sounds the same as a keyboard, even a rompler, u are ignoring the other factors that go into the design of the machine. hell my sound got fuller when i bought a power conditioner.. similiar changes just are not possible with software u cant inject your computer with super powers and make it calcute 1s and 0s better .. it is what it is..

 

[thedreampolice]

Just Blaze uses Pro tools with a Control 24. Trust me I can find out what most of the top guys actually use easy enough. Also read Digizine http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=6

 

[Ash Holmz]

u guys are actually proving my point .. hardware cant replace software.. not yet .. the topic of this thread was if hardware could be replaced by software ..like u could do EVERYTHING in the computer and come out with the same quality as with quality hardware... if u take a software beat and run it through hardware..guess what ... hardware procssed the sound duhh.. so what exactly are u guys saying? ... and i know just blaze uses pro tools and a control 24(who doesnt? lol) but thats not all.. and if u really believe thats all he uses go right ahead and keep thinking that.....its nieve to say the least.... he also records live instruments and hires symphonies to come in and play his melodies.. and he uses a real drum set and also a midi drum set.. and runs his mixes thru an ssl board......sounds like he uses more than a computer program lmao.. he also has a room full of synths like the minimoog,andromeda, v synth and whatver else u can name. blaze said he uses logic in place of his mpc, he didnt say that he threw away all of his gear and does all his work inside the box.

 

[thedreampolice]

Read the Digi insider. he does say that.

 

[konceptG]

i hear ya, but i think we are arguing the same thing ... "superior" is a matter of perspective... are the dacs on a digi 002 better than an sp1200? .. techinically spec wise yes.. yet drums from an sp have that sound to them... hardware is imperfect, noisy, and distorted (in a good way)and thats why its sounds "fuller" to my ears (again its a subjective thing), and two identical samples probably won't sound the same, because u are using a diffrent dac on your sampler than ur computer. software operates one way the same over and over and over agin..its a program an equation.. hardware is combination of many diffrent aspects, power supply,voltages,cabling,tempature,type of metal,outside interference any of which could put inconsistenicies in the sound..... the ssl duende uses the same alogortyhm as the c200 console, does it sound close? yes. does it sound the same? hell no...there are plenty of plugins that use the exact same algortyhms as there hardware counterparts but they sound inferior. by saying a softsynth sounds the same as a keyboard, even a rompler, u are ignoring the other factors that go into the design of the machine. hell my sound got fuller when i bought a power conditioner.. similiar changes just are not possible with software u cant inject your computer with super powers and make it calcute 1s and 0s better .. it is what it is..

The SP1200 sounds the way it does thanks to the dirty 12 bit sampling and dac's. Though this doesn't mean that all 12 bit samplers sound crunchy, I had some rather impressive sounding sample sets for the Roland S550 many years ago and I didn't get the 12bit crunch like my boy's S950.

With hardware interfaces for mixing and keys, everything can be done with a PC... The thing is... It's not nearly as FUN as it is with hardware. Some of the magic in production comes from just jamming away without having to worry about point-and-click stuff. Just turn on the board or drum machine and play. That's one big part the PC will never be able to recreate.

 

[Hi-Lo]

im not sure i really get why anyone would be afraid of hardware becoming less popular...nobody can force you to stop using what you want, and if anything it just means you will be able to afford more hardware since it will be cheaper. as always the equipment doesn't really mean shi* in the end...give me just blaze on pro tools over some kid with a room full of asr's and moogs any day. if some people want to use software that's their choice and its not hurting anyone, if anything its made it way easier for people to try their hand at producing

also, just hasn't ditched his 4k, still uses it a whole lot along with roland v synths and a lot of hardware. never believe a producer uses something because he said it in a company sponsored magazine or even in an interview...a lot of these pro guys actually lie about what they use because they know theres a ton of prosumer beatmakers out there looking to copy them. not that it matters for much but (almost) all of the biggest guys in the game are still very much hardware based, of course they use pro tools but what studio doesn't. the only major guys sequencing and doing most of their work inside the box i know of are rob knox, the underdogs, j.r. rotem, and lab ox, and even most of those guys still have a lot of hardware synths in use.

 

[LDB]

If I played anyone here 5 tracks exactly the same. Some mixed through analog gear, some mixed through digital gear all mixed by the same engineer and mastered by the same engineer. Used hardware to produce some tracks and there digital equivalents to produce others, no one would be able to say which track was produced and mixed with hardware as opposed to digital "out the box" gear.

Nobody but Just Blaze can logically tell you what he used while producing a track. If you think otherwise you're impressing no one but yourself! And by impressing I mean "lying". It's like what Hi-Lo said, if someone is paying you to say this, that, and the third in a magazine you'll do it. Doesn't mean it's fact. The big boyz will never let you know every tool they use for the trade. As producers we're not built like that. We give away a little and never tell a lot. Lab Ox produces some of the phattest tracks I've heard in awhile and he started out using FL and a Axiom 49. I'm sure after getting caked up by G-Unit he's cop'd some better shit, but he'll never let anyone see his hand. You want a signature sound? Tweak your shit and don't tell a soul what you did and "BLAM" signature sound!

 

[thedreampolice]

Here is a clip from a recent interview with just blaze

"While it is common in hip hop for producers and beat makers to use hardware samplers to compose music, Just Blaze prefers to do everything "in the box." Having relied on an Akai MPC sampler for many years to compose his beats, he says that he now creates music entirely within Pro Tools. "We still have the MPC in the studio, but we don’t use it much anymore," he admits. "What we do now is record the sample into Pro Tools, chop up the parts of the sample that we definitely want to use, then import them into Native Instruments Battery. We basically use Battery and an M-Audio Trigger Finger to trigger the samples the same way an MPC would, and we use Pro Tools as the sequencer."

and another just blaze quote

"While Blaze goes for an old-school analog sound and real-feel live quality, he no longer uses the MPC for beats. Even his most valuable vinyl record, Monty Stark's A Stark Reality, will be sampled via Native Instruments Battery 3, not the MPC.

“I am totally off the MPC,” Blaze proclaims. “Battery and Pro Tools finally got their MIDI stuff together. What makes the MPC work in hip-hop is that we like to use it to cut up phrases. You can take 10 different sections of a sample and play them live. Battery is Native's drum machine, and it plays back samples as well; it has 16 rows of pads just like the MPC. So Pro Tools is my sequencer, and Battery is like my MPC. What everyone loves about the MPC is that you can get so much done in the least amount of steps, and you don't need to read the manual. However, I know Pro Tools like the back of my hand, and their MIDI and processing is the same. And Battery is similar enough in concept to the MPC that I only had to rethink certain things. Once I got used to using the mouse, I was on the way.”"

Also Beastie Boys did 5 Boroughs in reason with Pro Tools
http://remixmag.com/artists/remix_future_flashback/

 

[dacalion]

hahaha, I wonder how many folks are scratching their heads now? It's just a matter of time...I know cats whose whole setup is built around the MPC. Hardware is dropping piece by piece.

MOF

 

[Hi-Lo]

just is still using his mpc and plenty of hardware, despite what might be said in an interview. people need to just do what works for them.

 

[dacalion]

Hi-Lo, I agree with you, all in all it's about using what you got, thats what hip hop is all about. Even if you don't have what you need, improvise and make it dope. I knew this one would turn into another hardware vs. software thread from the begining but my point was to open eyes on whats turning out to be a disturbing trend in the music world. To say that hardware is out would be silly, however, to say that software is in and making big moves is factual. Akai is very big in hardware, not just the MPC's but other gear too, I wouldn't worry too much about hardware leaving until Akai starts making software DAW's or whatever to replace the hardware that they do make now. The MPK-45 is a step in that direction in my opinion. Look out when they make a trigger finger tho!

MOF

 

[thedreampolice]

"Look out when they make a trigger finger tho!"

they do

http://www.akaipro.com/prodMPD24.php

"just is still using his mpc and plenty of hardware, despite what might be said in an interview"

What evidence do you have to support that claim

“I am totally off the MPC,” Blaze proclaims.

 

[dacalion]

Thats my point...lol

MOF

 

[Hi-Lo]

"Look out when they make a trigger finger tho!"

they do

http://www.akaipro.com/prodMPD24.php

"just is still using his mpc and plenty of hardware, despite what might be said in an interview"

What evidence do you have to support that claim

“I am totally off the MPC,” Blaze proclaims.

its just what i've heard. i don't doubt he uses battery but i also don't get why just blaze hanging up the mpc (even if he were to) should have the slightest effect on what any other producer does.

also to be honest what just uses truly doesn't matter b/c he will outwork 99% of other producers out there no matter what he's using and that matters more than anything. i'm not even in the beat game so much anymore but i still chop it up with a lot of producers and it makes me sad to see so many threads on gear on production forums because i can't stress how little it matters. work ethic and relationships are the only things that matter as far as production goes.

 

[thedreampolice]

I don't think it does. But my point is that software only studios can stand up to and even exceed hardware studios and compete in the top 40 market.

 

[Ash Holmz]

just is still using his mpc and plenty of hardware, despite what might be said in an interview. people need to just do what works for them.

Ah fuckin men .. thats what im tryin to say but people still dont seem to get it .... if u think he could make tracks of his caliber with nothing else but a computer then ur way off the mark. again he says he ditched the mpc, for battery... which is understandable... im sure he didnt ditch his ssl for the waves plugs, or ditch his moog for a softsynth .. etc.. ive seen footage of him on his vsytnth and other keyboards as well... after this interview... hes not completely itb from start to finish... only a handfull few producers on major projects are ... theres a diffrence between utilizing software for certain tasks and COMPLETLY doing evrything itb.. 9th wonder is an examle of the latter and one of few hip hop producers (in the traditional sense) doin it big that REALLY do practice this. He makes hits with a mouse and fruity loops. thats it. Just tracks orchestras through an ssl board and uses a full live as well as a full midi drumkit lol. My argument was that just uses hardware, i didnt say he uses his mpc... mpc is a sampler, any software sampler will have more memoy features and functions than an mpc .. its been this way for years... now will software samplers replace mpc's .. yes ... but software cannot replace ALL hardware yet and i doubt it will be able to anytime within the next ten years. i believe software and hardware will co-exist forever . like on some matrix shit lol...

 

[LDB]

On the real...this whole software hardware war is bullshit. All that matters at the end of the day is making good music by any means necessary. You'll never be able to convince a hardware buff that software is and can take over no more so then you can make a software buff believe hardware will make a come back and dominate again. There's plenty of room for both and most of the time it depends on your budget and what you can afford to cop. If I had long money I'd fill my studio up with the best of both worlds and beat, strum, click and drag till I couldn't no more. I love hardware but I'm not afraid of technology either. In todays production game you need to have a good working understanding of both because what one can't do the other one can.

 

[Relic]

Haha oooh you guys!!
I leave this thread for a couple of pages and your arguing the ol software vs hardware thing..
woooo now now...you all know better...

Hardware is of course better anyday..Im surprised at you fellas..