Is Hip Hop becoming like Jazz?

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E

eblue

Guest
A little music history?(short version) Back in the 1920's, and 1930's Jazz was the "new" music on the scene. It was played in underground clubs where the gangsters would hang out, and most importantly people would dance to it. In the '40s, (late '30s actually) I suppose musicians got bored or just simply wanted to make music better so they created another form of Jazz called Bebop. You may or may not know these people (Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk, and Charlie Parker to name a few). People even tried dancing to this for a while till something "better" (for dancing) came along... You know the '50s and rock and roll. The musicians at the time resented this music, saying it's not music it's garbage. Kinda what people on this site are saying about L'il John, Chingy, J-Kwon etc.
The point is, look at Jazz... not exactly the most popular music of the day, still they are world class musicians who train and practice their craft more than anyone on the planet. Yet they don't get the respect they should. Why? They began making music for each other. They escalated it so that they alienated the masses that supported them in the beginning. The musicians created a genre that showed their musical prowess rather than inviting the world to have fun listening to them. Does this sound familiar. Purists today talk about how ill a rhyme is or who's spittin fire, while shittin' on the people that are actually keeping the music in the eye of the masses. The key is always elevate your artform, you wouldn't be artists if you didn't. But don't forget to make people shake their asses in the process, or you will be replaced. Keep it alive One.
 

Cold Truth

IllMuzik Moderator
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 25
its hard to elevate the artform by dumbing it down, dont you think?

lets think about something: lil wayne claims he is the best rapper alive, now that jay z is retired. think about that. LIL WAYNE. basically, the guy is saying he is better than black thought, common, andre 3000, erick sermon (THE best producer on the mic), redman, pharoahe monch, nas, and a whole slew of artists..... and no one has really taken him to task for that statement.

basically, the jkwons, the lil waynes and flips, and the chingies have all capitalized on a market that likes to keep hip hop real....DUMB. they do not even come close to representing the best hip hop has to offer. its sad taht these are the current faces of the mainstream, but that tells you how watered down radio and mtv have turned hip hop. mainstream hip hop has become much more commerce than art... and you can make people dance and make good music at the same time. these guys really arent making good music. there lyrics are plain and generic at best...

you make a woeful comparison here. the be bop artists- the guys you named anyways, are all highly regarded as they had extensive catalogs and made music that stood the test of time. artists today are diposable and release large amounts of material that is WATERED DOWN, DILUTED, and without much artistic merit. oh... and they had talent. they didnt have the media hype machines that created their persona's and the carefully planned marketing ploys of todays rappers.
 
E

eblue

Guest
Keep it in context. There will never be another Dizzy or Monk. The point is that while rappers and producers are fighting with each other about who the best is. the masses will lose interest and move on to something else (Chingy etc). The "good" artists you referred to can and should be the ones responsible for making better music but they don't now do they. Muscians have to realize most people listen to music differently than they do. They listen to escape, listen for pleasure, you know just to have fun. We remeber fun don't we.
We take our craft seriously because it's our craft. Don't expect the world to be as intellectual about music. I know a lot of bitter Jazz musicians and some rappers are beginning to sound the same way. That's what prompted the post. Thanx for replying to it
 
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 3
Wings' Point Of View

Some History (for general knowledge...): Jazz was created mainly by black musicians in the early 20th century. It was produced through a combination of styles taken from European classical music, American music such as blues and ragtime, and from African tribal music. Jazz began to develop all over the U.S.A. but particularly in New Orleans. In the clubs and bars of New Orleans, musicians like Jelly Roll Morton developed a piano style known as boogie woogie. Jelly Roll Morton claimed he 'invented' jazz in 1902. The year 1910 seems to be the generally accepted date for the beginnings of jazz dance bands. The common line up was: 2 or more brass instruments, 2 or more saxophones or clarinets, piano, banjo, drum, sometimes a violin. Dance music played by these bands depended on SYNCOPATION for its interest, i.e. putting accents on notes that do not come at the beginning of the bar. The musical forms used were blues, ragtime, and cakewalk, etc. Increasing popularity of dance bands came with the fox-trot, a ballroom dance characterised by a march-like ragtime, slow or quick. It existed in a variety of slightly different styles such as Horsetrot, Fishwalk, Charleston and Black Bottom. The spread of the fox-trot was due to the phonograph, or gramophone, which allowed many people to practise their dance steps at home. Jazz was not recorded until 1916 when The Original Dixieland Jazz Band, a group of white musicians, recorded Fidgety Feet. The rise of popular music changed the role of music in daily life. Song lyrics came to reflect the fundamental concerns of the family, portraying hope, despair, heroism, humour, frustration and above all love. The main factor in the growth of popular music in the 1920s was the development of radio. This had been overshadowed in the first twenty years of the century by the gramophone, but technological development enables radios to be mass-produced cheaply by the end of the First World War. In the U.S.A., sales figures for radios soared to $800 million by 1930. Many dance halls employed resident bands. The undisputed 'King of Jazz' was Paul Whiteman, a classically trained musician who turned to jazz around 1914. Bix Beiderbecke was also an extremely well-known jazz trumpeter who excelled at improvisation and introduced the saxophone into his own band. Towards the end of the 1920s New York became the centre of jazz in America. Bands started introducing other instruments such as string bass, guitar and piano which obviously increased their size so they became known as Big Bands. Big bands are exactly as their name suggests. Big bands developed in the 1920s and became especially popular in the 1930s and early 1940s. Two famous band leaders were Glenn Miller (famous for In the Mood) and Benny Goodman. Some of the 1920s big bands even included a string section. Glenn Miller's song Chattanooga Choo Choo was the world's first million selling disc. Teenagers supported their favourite band with the same excitement that many now apply to pop groups. To accompany the Swing music, new athletic dances were created which involved swinging partners around and much fancy footwork. These often had colourful names such as the Lindy Hop, the Jitterbug, the Big Apple and Kicking the Mule. These were very different from the slow dances like the Fox-trot which had been fashionable. The Swing band era reached its end with the end of World War Two due to the government imposing an entertainment tax of 20%, more people having TVs, and small Jazz groups were cheaper to hire than Big Bands. For the 20 or 30 years of the Swing band era, jazz became the 'pop' music of the day. If you went to a dance, put money into a jukebox, or turned on the radio, you would hear a Swing Band. During the 1940s many young musicians in America were becoming dissatisfied with the predictable sounds of Swing Jazz. Performers such as Dizzie Gillespie and Charlie Parker began experimenting with new ideas and developed a style known as Bebop. This music abandoned the traditional rules of playing jazz. It was an energetic, up tempo form with jerky changes of rhythm, rapid melodies and much use of improvisation. Perhaps is representative of Bebop jazz. During the 1950s there was a reaction against the nervous excitement of Bebop and Cool Jazz was developed, which was more laid back and mellow, with easier rhythms and softer tones. Miles Davis was the most important figure in the development of Cool Jazz. He often used a mute on his trumpet to produce a quiet, muffled sound. Davis also introduced a range of instruments such as the oboe, flute, tuba and French Horn which had not been used in jazz before. Other performers such as Don Cherry and Roland Kirk introduced instruments from all over the world including Tibet, India and China, and called this form Free Jazz. Free Jazz was not a commercially successful style of music as many thought the squawks and squeals did not sound like music at all.


now for my own outlook:

although jazz is certainly not the most 'popular' music of the day, it's still very influential...
it has always been this way. jazz has never been a HUGE commercial success, but it has been always considered as serious music for serious people. jazz is really not for everyone, but it can't be argued that it has a very significant impact on the develpoment of music. DO NOT FORGET THAT so many other styles and genres have been evolved as a direct result of the inner developments within jazz.

One,
Wings
 

RigorMortis

Army Of Darkness
ill o.g.
hiphop still is hiphop only the hiphop propaganda platform (those people that reach and overwhelm) are makin a pop and rnb twist of hiphop cos hiphop wont sell urban bling does sell. so i am not worried about hiphop, a lot of people just dont know what hiphop really is or mistake it for what they get fed from whatever media that penetrates their glossy tainted live.
 

UnOwn

Sir Templeton Peck
ill o.g.
RigorMortis said:
hiphop still is hiphop only the hiphop propaganda platform (those people that reach and overwhelm) are makin a pop and rnb twist of hiphop cos hiphop wont sell urban bling does sell. so i am not worried about hiphop, a lot of people just dont know what hiphop really is or mistake it for what they get fed from whatever media that penetrates their glossy tainted live.

Werd to Rig... real heads stay real...
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
If I keep all the industry material out of it then I might consider like that, but the amount of potentialy cultivated artist who are worthy of being in such a catagory is to small to say that hiphop in general is going to profile itself alike Jazz.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
It's wishfull thinking from my perspective, too many cats rappin' either too much about themselves or materialistic subjects and how they have it ( anorganic or flesh ).

Jazz is composed/improvised to speak for itself and any individual will reflect their own remarks about what and how it will appeal. Although a songtitle will point out the mood/emotion of a jazz production, it wont define the " content " so to speak ( Coltrane's " Softly as in a morning sunrise", could just aswell be called " straight chaser " ...). A hiphop track is aimed at the tracktitle in order to fit the context, so it's very direct and also autodefined to anyone.

I might only know 2 mc's who are capable of bringing out abstract lyrics that would set your brain to drift and wonder what it all means to you in that the lyrics would serve a different meaning between 2 ( or more ) individuals.

Another issue, mc's are far to dominating ( sometimes selfishly ) when it's really about the musical harmony. The mix is differently balanced and mc is not lead, so mc's should know their place in linguistix, vocabularies, metaphores and their own vocal reach ( pitch and dynamics )in order to get that subtle. Recent hiphop compared to this previous defined state is flat dynamics.

Yes, im not sceptical and it's good too, if people were to say that hiphop is jazzlike, it would imply that the respectable genre would lower it's entrylevel for what .....

Trust me, it takes more, much more to make hiphop alike jazz and from what I hear 2day it's still far from it.
 

def1nition

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
I don't think eblue was comparing the two as forms of of music but more comparing the two in it's history. If you compare the history, hip-hop is a lot like jazz during the bebop time you also had artists like Louis jordan who's music was still considered jazz but was the beggining of R&B, and Rock all the swing listeners were confused by bebop and thier tastes swung to artists like Louis Jordan. Also Jazz lost it's black audience during bebop, it was an art music all the poets and beats were into bebop. The same thing is happening with hip-hop a lot of the commercial stuff can hardly be called hip-hop anymore it's almost like Club music like the little John the Missy stuff all the dancehall that's becoming popular. Also the underground is losing it's black audience which in turn is making it lose it's urban apeal. The question is if another form of popular music forms from hip hop will there still be artists in hip hop willing to stay with hip hop and push it's artistic boundries are people that serious about the music as an art. Bebop musicians really didn't care about whether the fan base was changing, them and a small group of other people knew they had something that would change music itself. Its nearly sixty years later and people are still amazed at the genious of bebop. Is whats happening in the underground right now so profound that artists would not abandon it for a new more lucrative form of music? I don't think so there's a few artists who are innovators overall in my opinion underground rap hasn't changed since around 96. Even though it's fan based changed jazz musicians kept innovating and changing the music, today Jazz is considered America's only musical artform and is still played I play at jazz clubs every once in a while. I think if hip hop loses it's major fan base it's doomed.
 
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