Intelligence and making beats...

[J-ReZyN]

I was talking with this dude at my job about music production and other things related to intelligence versus common sense/street smarts. He was going on about if you’re intelligent and educated you can learn to do most anything including making hip hop beats and other types of electronic music because it’s just a matter of learning the software or hardware and following the formula for whatever type of music you’re trying to make. So you know, he plays the guitar and piano, and I give him credit for that because I have mad respect for anyone who plays any instrument, but he pissed me off because he was implying that anyone could make beats but not everyone could play an instrument. I set him straight and let him know that shit was stupid because to me and anyone who makes beats and electronic music, the computer, the software and the hardware are the instruments and that producing music this way is an art form like any other. It’s a creative process and beyond the knowledge of your gear, you need to know how to put the pieces together to express what you hear in your head. It takes just as much talent, creativity and hard work as any other art form. When I’m working on music and I’m zoned out and shit is flowing, I’m like Jimmy Hendrix on the guitar. I know y’all know what I’m trying to say. I just hate that f**king arrogance from so called “musicians” that look down on certain forms of music that aren’t composed the so called ‘traditional’ way. And regarding intelligence, you can retain every fact and bit of trivia in the world, but it’s what you do with that knowledge that determines how intelligent you are. I’ve seen many ‘intelligent’ people do some really stupid shit because they lack basic common sense. Man, if didn’t need my job, I woulda bitch smacked him. Sorry for the rant, but I had to vent. Peace.

 

[shadeed]

I was talking with this dude at my job about music production and other things related to intelligence versus common sense/street smarts. He was going on about if you’re intelligent and educated you can learn to do most anything including making hip hop beats and other types of electronic music because it’s just a matter of learning the software or hardware and following the formula for whatever type of music you’re trying to make. So you know, he plays the guitar and piano, and I give him credit for that because I have mad respect for anyone who plays any instrument, but he pissed me off because he was implying that anyone could make beats but not everyone could play an instrument. I set him straight and let him know that shit was stupid because to me and anyone who makes beats and electronic music, the computer, the software and the hardware are the instruments and that producing music this way is an art form like any other. It’s a creative process and beyond the knowledge of your gear, you need to know how to put the pieces together to express what you hear in your head. It takes just as much talent, creativity and hard work as any other art form. When I’m working on music and I’m zoned out and shit is flowing, I’m like Jimmy Hendrix on the guitar. I know y’all know what I’m trying to say. I just hate that f**king arrogance from so called “musicians” that look down on certain forms of music that aren’t composed the so called ‘traditional’ way. And regarding intelligence, you can retain every fact and bit of trivia in the world, but it’s what you do with that knowledge that determines how intelligent you are. I’ve seen many ‘intelligent’ people do some really stupid shit because they lack basic common sense. Man, if didn’t need my job, I woulda bitch smacked him. Sorry for the rant, but I had to vent. Peace.

I disagree with the dude at your job 200%, but I'm glad you didn't smack him, jobs pay the bills! Education and intelligence are two totally different things, and "street smarts"
is a form of intelligence. Now, I'm not trying to start a "Don't go to college" debate here, but I can tell you that in the world of music, education isn't valued as highly as other fields such as information technology or the medical field unless you wanna be a Cathy Hughes or Marsha Meadows type of person in the industry.

As far as musician vs. beatmaker debate, MANY musicians especially those that don't mess w/ hip hop feel that beatmaking isn't "musical", so don't sweat that.
I've always felt that sampling and beatmaking was an evolution of DJ'ing and I don't look at it in the sense of "playing music" to me its two separate things, but to be a good beatmaker does require an ear for music and talent.

 

[classic]

There are many differnt types of beating making like shadeed eluded to.

I can tell you personally that learning how to play an instrament, and creating beats are 2 totally seprate processes with minimual over lap. Thats why i kina cringe when i see all these "i wanna learn the piano threads".... With that being said a knowlege of music does help the beat making process, but alot of that is intutition

Like if i never learned how to play the piano or sax, i still think i would be making the same type of beats, becasue when producing, its more focused on instinct & talent rather then trained techinal abilitity, you either got it or you dont...

So in that circumstance, the dude is wrong...
But...It also depends on what type of beats u make, if ur just taking samples and looping them and throwing a bassline on and not really adding much musicalitity to it then yea,, it really aint that musical, its more an extension of DJing(some for cats who use simple synth melodides)

BUt if ur composing from scratch and creating your own sounds and samples as well as manuplating other samples i think that it cat be VERY musical....

 

[tricky spinz]

i think that the skills involved in good producing, the necessary ones anyway, are creativity and whatever natural musical ability you need to know what sounds good. i mean, i can give an mpc and a manual to somebody creative but they won't necessarilly be able to produce something pleasant to listen to. this is where i think that theory gets more involved.

knowing how to PLAY an instrument can help with knowing theory because when you play an instrument you just end up inevitably learning the basic things like chords and whatnot. but if you have someone who is creative and took a theory or composition class and then give them an mpc and a manual i think there's a very good chance they'll make something that sounds good.


so i guess my point is that playing an instrument is just like classic said, trained technical points. but so is knowing how to use your hardware or software. and i think that kowing theory, not knowing how to play an instrument, is much better for the creative process.

in the same way that if you tossed me a violin without and instruction and said "play!" i couldn't do shit without experimenting with the instrument for a while, if i tossed some hardware or software at someone who played an instrument but who hadn't worked with THIS equipment before they wouldn't be able to do shit either until they worked with it for a bit.

so honestly, i think that there is really no difference between someone who can play and composes for a traditional instrument and someone who produces and essentially "plays" the software/hardware that they are using.

 

[bigdmakintrax]

I sort of agree, like I know some kids who could not make a beat to save their life and they improved on it and got sick...I see it all the time though I help out young producers here in the area and help them and I seen a few that done come a really long way....I feel like beatmaking is not a rocket science and I completely disagree you are born with it or not....LOL that is nowhere near the truth the element of practice and application of concepts repeated over and improved upon will give you a usable and hot result in the annals of hip hop...there is tons of kids in suburbia that can make that throwback hot east coast shidd....just from studying the formulas.....I do not agree that good hip hop producers equate to being born with it.....its not how it works.....I mean you might be at a stage where yes you are a good producer....but pushing the envelope to phenomenal status....is something like say production where you have arrived at it thru practice not just arriving at being a super beat maker or producer off the jump it doesnt happen like that and anyone believing it need to study more producers and their background and especially ones considered to be hot......they more than likely copied a style or some producer considered to be hot at their upcoming....then improved on it and honed it to their own sound....thats just my thoughts on the topic..yes there are prodigies in the hip hop production game....and I feel like even like shadeed said.....real hip hop and what you do has to be an extension of turtablism and DJ'ng.....can someone be taught to be a dope turntablist.....??? hell yes no doubt....would someone come out of the gate with the ability to spin and cut better yep..but one can be taught that......I am closer to agreeing with dude myself....

 

[Formant024]

There's dudes doing years of study on how to get their contra's dynamics just right (they'll kill you for compressing their recordings) under their control and you want to compare that to operating an mpc ? Same with piano, you can play piano or you can play liszt. The topnotch king pimp god blessed avatar of beatmaking wont equate to such a musician.

I thought kids how to make rhytmic cuts n fades in 15 minutes, the basic beat making on the mpc in 30 minutes. It'll take a noob at least! 2 years to have a bit of understanding about the whole producing game, after that its up to your perspective how far you will get...A pianist however would still be training his fingers on expression and speed...

ow, and its got nothing to do with intelligence but with dedications, intelligence is all about communicating.

 

[classic]

get...A pianist however would still be training his fingers on expression and speed...

i can vouce for that espically the liszt part

BUT.... their is a differnce between learing to play other peoples composititons and making you own music...

Ive said this 1000 times, i went to school with some of the best musicans in the country. These cats could play it all from rachminoff concherto's to Strauss..

But if u asked those to compose a simple hip hop loop..from scatch... It sounds like shit...Now one of these teenages ur talk about could sample a riff from that same person and turn it into dope ass track

Dont get me wrong i agree with what u said about the pianist, but their is a differnce. hip hop just like any musical artform not only takes musical skill, but a certain kind of soul and free thought that cannont be taught.... i Know music theory but I NEVER use it when im making beats(unless im composing a bridge for an R&B song). FOr me alteast when i make hip hop i have to get into a free thinking mode....

 

[GRAFIK]

i can vouce for that espically the liszt part

BUT.... their is a differnce between learing to play other peoples composititons and making you own music...

Ive said this 1000 times, i went to school with some of the best musicans in the country. These cats could play it all from rachminoff concherto's to Strauss..

But if u asked those to compose a simple hip hop loop..from scatch... It sounds like shit...Now one of these teenages ur talk about could sample a riff from that same person and turn it into dope ass track

Dont get me wrong i agree with what u said about the pianist, but their is a differnce. hip hop just like any musical artform not only takes musical skill, but a certain kind of soul and free thought that cannont be taught.... i Know music theory but I NEVER use it when im making beats(unless im composing a bridge for an R&B song). FOr me alteast when i make hip hop i have to get into a free thinking mode....

Well put, i totally agree, you can't teach it, you have to feel hip hop to make hip hop

 

[Relic]

Give your "friend" an mp the manual and an hour then find out how "Smart" a beat he makes.

 

[J-ReZyN]

I'm loving this site more and more every day.

As far as musician vs. beatmaker debate, MANY musicians especially those that don't mess w/ hip hop feel that beatmaking isn't "musical", so don't sweat that.
I've always felt that sampling and beatmaking was an evolution of DJ'ing and I don't look at it in the sense of "playing music" to me its two separate things, but to be a good beatmaker does require an ear for music and talent.

Thank you! I agree, sampling and beatmaking are definetly evolutions of DJ'ing and is completely different from playing a traditional instrument. Can anybody learn to make a beat? True! But to make a beat that is considered hot by the people who apreciate that type of music you do need an ear for the music and some talent. Anybody can make a shitty ass beat. What irked me was that the dude was coming at me with an elitist attitude and had the balls to say, and I gotta quote,"a monkey can learn to make a rap song, but I bet you that most people who make rap don't have the mental capacity to learn a real instrument." Now you see why I wanted to smack him? Dude was indirectly insultng me and trying to dumb me down because I don't play a real instrument.

I can tell you personally that learning how to play an instrament, and creating beats are 2 totally seprate processes with minimual over lap.

Like if i never learned how to play the piano or sax, i still think i would be making the same type of beats, becasue when producing, its more focused on instinct & talent rather then trained techinal abilitity, you either got it or you dont...

BUt if ur composing from scratch and creating your own sounds and samples as well as manuplating other samples i think that it cat be VERY musical....

Classic - you're the man. Your beats are all hot and I got the deepest respect for you knowing you play the piano and sax too. This is great, now I can pick the brain of somebody who comes from both angles. Yes they are both seperate processes, but, in both cases, you start off as a beginner and put in practice, hone your skills and continue to progress and elevate yourself to higher levels. Now it's clear that most instruments are gonna have a much steeper learning curve than lets say an MPC, but I think it's wrong for someone to totally dismiss the hard work and all the effort you put into producing a quality track, which is what the dude was doing. Do you think you deserve any less respect for your beatmaking than you do for your piano and sax skills? I don't think so because any music you make with any of the three to me is music, art and something to be appreciated.

can someone be taught to be a dope turntablist.....??? hell yes no doubt....would someone come out of the gate with the ability to spin and cut better yep..but one can be taught that......I am closer to agreeing with dude myself....

While I agree that someone can be taught to do anything like beatmaking or scratching, I have to disagree with your claim that they can reach a level that is considered dope! Beyond learning the basics of any art form, no amount of practice can make up for a lack of talent.

There's dudes doing years of study on how to get their contra's dynamics just right (they'll kill you for compressing their recordings) under their control and you want to compare that to operating an mpc ? Same with piano, you can play piano or you can play liszt. The topnotch king pimp god blessed avatar of beatmaking wont equate to such a musician

If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I never tried to equate beatmaking to being a musical virtuoso of any instrument. On the contrary, I give mad props to all musicians. The point that I was trying to make was that while one may be infinately more difficult to learn than the other, to me, and I hope I'm not alone, the end result, the music, is an artistic expression of the artist manipulating their chosen instrument and should not be dismissed or put down, but given credit. I would never dare to compare a pianist to somebody banging out beats on an MPC, that's like comparing apples and oranges, but I appreciate and acknlowledge the amount of effort and training that was put in by both. The dude I was arguing with refused to give any credit at all to anything other than 'traditionally' composed music. And for the record, he was the one who brought the subject of intelligence into the conversation which I found ironic because for someone who claimed to be so intelligent, he was incredibly close minded.

Big up to all of y'all, I respect you opinions and I'm glad to see people speaking their mind! Respect!

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Well put, i totally agree, you can't teach it, you have to feel hip hop to make hip hop

thats true but I bet you the majority of cats that think they making hip hop on their own have to have listened to someone elses style and beats and are emulating...trust me I know what I am talking about...(example that musician in the video with the guitar he completely jacked some Jaydee style or about 10 other ones I know..but he was following not leading in that composition to me there was nothing original in what he did except he could play the parts and that takes nothing away from the dopeness of what he did its just that the end result has been done and said and its following the formulas)...most of the people that cats consider dope are making the same type of joints that someone in the 90's perfected and did already....or they have picked up Pete Rock bass filtering and patterns...Jaydee has heavy influence on underground but he got his technique from someone else...can someone tell me...but there are lots of beats I hear out now that use the same type of formula....I hear a lot of the same patterns in a Kev Brown production with how the kicks are used and the basslines, Pete Rock was doing that a long time ago....now this goes to another thread...are they really emulating or are they going by the formulas.....you show me someone thats out making dope hip hop beats that you think is original I bet you I can find a production that someone else did and find many similiarities of drum patterns, changeups etc......its not a rocket science I have said this 1000 times.....the most simplistic is generally amongst the listeners and pure head.....the dopest, no mattter how monotonous the loop....its the mesh with the mc and how everything, not just the beat flows together...but to the original.....if you are intelligent enuff to studdy something and repeat it then you can produce....just like if you play by ear and never had a piano lesson and you can play anything you hear....I guarantee you a pianist that was intelligent enuff to play by ear, could definitely sit down and make hip hop....I dont want to brag but I have some friends that are classically trained as well.....and I gigged with formally trained and self taught......being improvisational and learning how to mesh something together from ear probably translates over more closely between playing an instrument and putting together a dope hip hop beat if you ask me...so could a reasonably intelligent individual make a hip hop beat.....hell yeah, could they make a dope one...yes and if only 1 can this makes a proof of the fact....at least to me anyhow LOL

 

[open mind]

listen what a "beatmaking" MASTER has said.

“Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.”
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

 

[benny beatz]

any chump can learn to play an instrument but u gotta be live to create heat

 

[StressWon]

word up,,,if you put ya mind to makin beats,,,you will learn it,,,same as a instrument. lol, I played the violin when I was a kid,,,,okay, so I did it to get out of class,,,but still, I learned it and was good at it. It's about wanting to do something. The human brain is fuckin incredible.

 

[MarkN]

as has already been said they are totally different things but, his other point about intelligence definately stacks up, especially musical knowledge i've taught experienced musicians to DJ to a good standard in like 2 hours, try teaching that to some who doesn't play an instrument !

 

[andreas]

The way I see it is that musicality transends genres.

For example, my best friend is a drummer and works as a musician. Different bands hire him to drum for them. And no matter the genre, or whether he likes it and "feels the genre as his own" he can play it. Cuz he's a musician.

Exept the drums he plays, bass, guitar and piano aswell and his own style is Pop. But when he comes to my crib and listens to my beats he can say at the flick of a wrist "no, this would be better" or "this works better with that tonality" and such. And it always improves me.

So yes. Taken out the fact that the MPC is a gadget he just can't operate I know that a trained musician can transend genres and make any kind of music.
That's just how it is.

But that doesn't take out the fact that your friend is an asshole. "A monkey can make hip hop". That's just stupid behavior

 

[J-ReZyN]

The way I see it is that musicality transends genres....a trained musician can transend genres and make any kind of music. That's just how it is.

But that doesn't take out the fact that your friend is an asshole. "A monkey can make hip hop". That's just stupid behavior

...his other point about intelligence definately stacks up, especially musical knowledge i've taught experienced musicians to DJ to a good standard in like 2 hours, try teaching that to some who doesn't play an instrument !

I completely agree with you both. andreas, I like the way you put that, that's deep and it is so true. For the record though, the dude is NOT my friend, he's just some asshole I work with.

MarkN, you're definitely right and I agree with you completely since I've been through the same thing, but you're making your case in a civilized way where as the dude I was talking/arguing with was straight up being an arrogant, hostile ass so I wasn't about to concede the point to him. Theres a lot more to the story that I just couldn't get into in my post like the fact that a big part of it was him trying to impress some other co-workers that were in on the conversation, thats another story altogether. I will say that I was the only one there defending hip hop so I got a bit heated.

word up,,,if you put ya mind to makin beats,,,you will learn it,,,same as a instrument. lol, I played the violin when I was a kid,,,,okay, so I did it to get out of class,,,but still, I learned it and was good at it. It's about wanting to do something. The human brain is fuckin incredible.

Yo Stress, mad respect on your violin skills. That's something to be proud of. Have you ever recorded your live strings for any of your tracks? That would be hot. Miri Ben-Ari does some amazing shit with violins over hip hop tracks.

Peace!

 

[sYgMa]

So yes. Taken out the fact that the MPC is a gadget he just can't operate I know that a trained musician can transend genres and make any kind of music.
That's just how it is.

Actually, I dont agree with you even if... I'm a drummer myself. There is a difference between playing any kind of beats and making any kind of beats.

When a drummer plays with a band that is not of his own style, the music structure is mostly there, all he got to do is to accompany what's already been composed. Knowing music basics (time signature, music styles, etc...) and accompaniement (is that a word?), he can play with the rest of the band. A trained musician can PLAY all genre, but that doesnt mean that he can make any kind of music.

Thing is, he doesnt have to compose the arrangment, he has to be part of it. Even if he can be very creative with the part he plays when he's with a band, there is still a big part of the work that has been done...

So, the reason he can tell you to adjust certain things in your composition is because he has musical knowledge. and musical knowledge can help making a more musical beat (if you compose) ... Classic is a good example of that (and he like to let us know he IS a musician 1st and formost)... but creating something out of nothing, that's what creating a beat is all about.


***Edit: Even if the MPC is a gadget, using samples is part of making beats, you dont NEED to know how to do it to make a beat, but it is still part of the hiphop culture. So, you you think a trained musician could flip a sample ?.... I'm not so sure....

 

[andreas]

My take on it is that if he had a sample he could acompany it with the right stuff. He'd make the bassline right and put stuff in there like synkops that an untrained person wouldn't know how to operate.
What I'm saying is. If you can make music and are a musician you can transend genres. Ofcourse there are schooled musicians that can't compose and only play other peoples work. but if you can compose music, I think you might have a preedisposition to make beats, or techno, or whatever. Cuz the basics of mucial production. Pop, techno, beats, whatever is structurarely the same.
There's harmonies and subharmonies and rhythms. And those things are really a common denominator I think.

It's a bit like this example. A painter that only paints prtraits might have a preedisposition of painting fishes even though he's never done it before because the craft and the knowledge of the colourscheeme and just to prove my point.
Here are some techniques that painters go by

* alla prima, or au premier coup
* assemblage
* broken colour
* chiaroscuro
* collage
* drybrushing
* glazing
* grisaille
* hard-edge painting
* hatching
* impasto
* imprimatura
* (painting in) layers
* optical blending
* en plein air
* Pointillism
* scumbling
* sfumato
* sgraffito
* smooth blending
* trompe l'oeil

THat's a bit the same thing I think. Once you know something it's not that hard to apply your knowledge to nearby fields. cus face it, there are groundrules to every form af art that can be applied and used if you just know how to operate them.

 

[Burna]

Honest opinion, It takes some type of "Intelligence" to even comprehend Sequancing, and the understanding of music in general. When it comes to the MPC, even to read the manual itsself you have to be even a quater intelligent. I think it takes, creativity, knowllege and plain the will to do anything in the music business to be honest. That's just my concept.

Now as far as Intelligence with Producing, and playing Instruments. I've never even tried to play an intrument so, for those that do i got mad respect for ya, I just cant do with worth shit.