If you think Eminem is the GOAT MC....
- Thread starter Tarboosh Record
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thedreampolice
A backwards poet writes inverse.
#1 JUST ONE?? That's tough, i'm a fan of everything from old school like Whodini and Pete Rock, Krs One to more modern stuff like Run the Jewels. I have very eclectic tastes. The album "To Pimp a Butterfly" is one of the two records that got me through my divorce. (the other was "Remain in light" by Talking Heads so not really relevant to this conversation. Although I do kinda think that David Byrne actually invented hip hop, something Chuck D of Public Enemy has also said. ) Atmosphere is another artist that REALLY got me through some shit. Im gonna have to answer two but man I could probably give you a hundred. The song "De La Souls" by P.O.S. means a lot to me. And lets go newer "Walking in the Snow" by Run the Jewls is just an amazing song. That's truly an impossible question.
#2 I live in Nebraska so there isn't a TON of hip hop shows coming through and the last few years with covid its been pretty rough. I lost my sense of time so I don't remember the exact last one but in recent memory I have seen "Run the Jews" "Kendrick Lamar" and "Atmosphere" and all were absolutely amazing shows, Kendrick is just insane live. But its probably been a year at least since I have been to a hip hop show or really any show other then local groups in a while because of covid. I did see The Avett Brothers with Willy Nelson this summer and that was great but I think that's about it. I like to get to some show once a month, but it's been slim pickings. I also play out live as much as possible. There is a local band here that im friends with called "Ghetto Blaster" that does a bunch of hip hop covers and they are pretty good. I go out to see them a lot because its just hanging out with friends. Check them out here and the drummer in the videos i'm actually in two other bands with. The black emcee in that band and I have been talking about doing a project so I may work with him on some tracks. I had a bunch of tickets for varies shows over the last 12 months and they all got cancelled so we will see what comes up. I know Snoop is coming to Lincoln where I live soon so I will probably end up at that.
#3 For me there are two things that I think make Eminem really stand out. The first is just how damn good of a writer he is. His lyrics are deceptively clever. Really REALLY interesting rhyme schemes that I don't think many other rappers could come up with. Then his delivery and enunciation is just so great. Its fast, its well pronounced and just perfectly on point. Take a song like "Rap God" for example so many interesting rhymes and he is just flying close to the end of the song but everything is just perfect. That takes some talent. Now you can certainly make a case for other rappers being the GOAT and I wouldn't disagree with you. But I don't think its crazy to throw Eminems name in that ring. You could also make a case that someone like Aesop Rock is a better writer etc. But Eminem really has quite the combo of talent. So im gonna stick with my guns on this one. And to echo what @2GooD Productions said, there are plenty of people who don't get the credit they deserve.
@Fade YOU LEAVE KANYE OUT OF THIS! He is the god damn Bob Dylan of our generation. Have you listened to "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" front to back? its one of the greatest records ever made. Not greatest hip hop record, ONE OF THE GREATEST. RECORDS. EVER. MADE. Full stop. It proved once and for all that hip hop could be pure art. It has been rated the best record of the decade by Billboard, Rolling stone and other huge publications. http://brantleybanner.com/9188/student-life/album-of-the-decade-my-beautiful-dark-twisted-fantasy/ I don't know how you could listen to that record and not think his production was fantastic. College Dropout, Graduation, Late Registration, 808's & Heartbreaks, Dark Twisted Fantasy and Yeezus are all remarkable albums. Have you heard Kids See Ghosts he did with Kid Cudi? Such a clever use of a snare drum in that one. You know he produced a bunch of Jay Z's the Blueprint right? The production on that is amazing. Like this one Have you heard "This way" by Dilated Peoples? Yup Kanye did that one, tell me that's not fire man Now I haven't liked his last few records as much. But to put out six amazing records in a row is talent man, come on now fam. PS did you miss my Kanye rants around here? LMAO
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Fade
The Beat Strangler
Administrator
illest o.g.
@thedreampolice Rap God is really good, I agree, but that beat sucks. I'd love to hear that vocal track on something so much better.
I've listened to Dropout but I've just never been a fan of Kanye, I hate his voice and flow. Something about it. The only thing that I like about Kanye is his early production on other people's music.
I've listened to Dropout but I've just never been a fan of Kanye, I hate his voice and flow. Something about it. The only thing that I like about Kanye is his early production on other people's music.
InsideOutBeats
ILLIEN
JUICE freestyling off the top, can’t say I’ve heard anyone better, it’s like he channels that shit from another dimension.
As he said when he’s in the zone it just flows like he’s not actually thinking it, just flowing through him.
Tarboosh Record
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 27
Thanks for the substantial answer! I appreciate your insight. And allow me to retort... Please dont be offended by what Im going to say, brother! Im just trying to defend my initial statement
(and of course this is ultimately just my opinion)Subjectively, I freaking HATE that song Rap God. Its a terrible song, But objectively it is a terrible Hip Hop song... Have you listened to the instrumental? It sounds like a wack slowed down euro-pop EDM music that David Guetta made. NOT Hip Hop... And Ems subject matter in the song, hes spoken about the same stuff before but much better in past songs (mainly his first 2 albums). And his flow? OK there are some half-impressive parts in Rap God I guess, but most of it is pretty nonsensical (rhyming 'lookin boy' for half of it? hehe) and his flow is so much better on tunes like Forgot About Dre or Dead Wrong... Fast rapping isnt what makes someone GOAT status. Not even close. And if it did then Busta Rhymes would take that title.
Eminem makes POP music now. Vast majority of his music doesnt resonate with the Hip Hop community. You NEVER hear his music played at a Hip Hop club (unless its his feature on someone elses song)...
Yes he raps good and is talented.... BUT when it comes to flow, cadence, subject matter, resonating with Hip Hop heads, etc he's already surpassed by so many (as mentioned, Busta, Pharoahe, Andre 3000, Kendrik, KGR, Gift of Gab, Black Thought, RA The Rugged Man, etc etc)...
Eminems immense success was down to timing, Dr Dre co-sign/production and being a zany character. And being White.
Now, I can see you know a bit about Hip Hop and its history, but not enough... and of course Im not going to say youre a little bit racist haha, BUT I dont think (judging by the examples youve given above and seeing youre not JUST a Hip Hop head but more into Pop stuff or eclectic Hip Hop taste) that youre not qualified to claim Em is the GOAT.
And I know I sound like a judgemental prick haha... But Im trying to defend my claim yo! I dont know you personally and Im just going offve what youve written above... Please take this with a pinch of salt.
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Juice lost to Supernatural though. The best freestyler Ive ever heard is Mad Skillz.
I remember him in the studio watching and freestyling about "Coming To America" which was on the telly at the time. One of the most memorable hip hop experiences of my life.
Fade
The Beat Strangler
Administrator
illest o.g.
That Supernatural vs Juice battle is EPIC.
I agree with @Tarboosh Record said about Eminem making Pop. This is why it's good to specify what "GOAT" means. Genre? Style? Flow? Era?
It's like basketball - I say Jordan is the best of all time, but that's also because so many things he brought to the game besides his play. It's like he had an aura. But at the same time no one really mentions guys before him like Bill Russell (11 rings!), Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. Those guys are all before my time, but from what I've seen/read, those guys were great too.
So I really think it should come down to each decade, then break it down a little more like style, sound of his voice, flow, lyrics, etc. There's also plenty of other guys that haven't been mentioned like Black Thought, Kane, LL, and of course NAS.
I agree with @Tarboosh Record said about Eminem making Pop. This is why it's good to specify what "GOAT" means. Genre? Style? Flow? Era?
It's like basketball - I say Jordan is the best of all time, but that's also because so many things he brought to the game besides his play. It's like he had an aura. But at the same time no one really mentions guys before him like Bill Russell (11 rings!), Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. Those guys are all before my time, but from what I've seen/read, those guys were great too.
So I really think it should come down to each decade, then break it down a little more like style, sound of his voice, flow, lyrics, etc. There's also plenty of other guys that haven't been mentioned like Black Thought, Kane, LL, and of course NAS.
Tarboosh Record
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 27
Yes there can be the GOAT of flow, GOAT of record sales, GOAT of lyricism etc etc.... But the objective GOAT MC has to include all these things in one. Its very hard to do hehe Everyone will have an opinion and its their right to have one, but some opinions are more valid than others for differing reasons.... As a genre, Hip Hop is still relatively young and as tech has changed and the way we ingest music has dramatically changed, it has obviously influenced the music and parameters of GOAT status in some ways... for better or for worse.
I was going to mention LL and Nas but they do get their recognition IMO.
Ill add Jeru to the list. Its really like "Top Trumps" people have strengths and weaknesses, but to be Top Trump you need to be good at a lot.
Im sure you could objectively break it down and a do a proper scientific statistical study and Em would most likely come out very near the top. Based on sales, battle record, and influence on a whole generation of white kids hes rates very fucking highly.
Personally I would say KRS is the GOAT, but thats my opinion. A cornerstone of and teacher of the lifestyle that is hip hop. Still doing it today.
Tarboosh Record
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 27
I would even argue that eminem had an overall detrimental influence... Not him personally, but what he influenced to happen.
The blame for that goes to puffy and Lil Wayne for me. Although for changing the landscape of hip hop forever, you have a point.I would even argue that eminem had an overall detrimental influence... Not him personally, but what he influenced to happen.
Hip Hop for me started falling off after 50 Cent dropped. Its been downhill ever since.
thedreampolice
A backwards poet writes inverse.
That's reasonable, if you just don't like his voice that's subjective and a matter of taste. But I don't think you can objectively say he is a bad producer.
@Tarboosh Record
Im pretty hard to offend so all good man!
I would say that of course Em is a pop artist, doesn't mean he isn't hip hop. I would say you have to narrow of a view of what hip hop is. If someone dropped that beat in the showcase here you guys would say it was fire. Come on now.
I said his enunciation when he raps fast is flawless, agreed its not about speed but when he goes fast its on point. That DOES make a case for GOAT status.
Funny you should mention Gab, I worked with him on this song before he died and we talked extensively about his flow and performance etc. He is amazing, im also a massive Black Thought fan.
So what? Can't fault someone for printing money.
I don't think one post on a forum gives you any idea whatsoever how much hip hop history I know.
I would hope not, because that is fighting words. Im also making the case that Kanye is the Bob Dylan of our generation too....
Im absolutely not just a hip hop head. I think that actually makes me even more qualified to make those set of judgements I have a very broad view of music.
Meh a little but again I don't get offended. I would simply say that your view of hip hop seems pretty narrow and I would maybe open that up a bit.
thedreampolice
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Fuck Lil Wayne....and yes I have seen him live as well.
thedreampolice
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Haha dude you crack me up.
Tarboosh Record
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 27
I have to admit you make a compelling case... But, I dont think I have a narrow view of Hip Hop! haha... Im defo going by the more traditional sense of what Hip Hop is. As I said earlier in this thread, Em would just about creep in to my top 20 MCs, but his influence and his body of work since he became mainstream has been below par and seems to cater MORE towards the pop aesthetic as opposed to Hip Hop. He's just not revered like that in Hip Hop circles and his name is only brought up as GOAT status by more pop savvy (white) people. Thats just what Ive noticed...
Tarboosh Record
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 27
That song is dope man
thedreampolice
A backwards poet writes inverse.
I don't know that I necessarily disagree with that. It goes back to how we are defining GOAT in the first place. Since you and I are defining it differently than we are coming to different conclusions and that's just fine. My larger point is just to throw out a blanket statement and say he is a bad rapper or that Kanye is a bad producer is just objectively false. Now you can say you personally don't like them or get their music and that it is absolutely a valid opinion. But IMHO I think both Kanye and Em have had very positive impacts on hip hop and music as a whole. You can certainly make a case either way of course.