I hate to say it, but why do people want it so easy!?

[FTdub]

The fact that someone can easily sample a record, tape, cd, tv, or whatever, is the exact reason that hip hop pioneers created the unwritten tenet that “Thou shall only sample from the original source”. It added a small obstacle to sample creation. In theory it makes you have to sample more creatively, but that was with much smaller memory capabilities. But its here where I agree with Steez, without the unofficial rules it is the culture that gets watered down. I am speaking for myself but I assume that Deuce, cares more for the culture and art of digging, sampling, and producing, than for blowing up. However if you care more for paying the bills and finding the right sound asap so that you can fulfill production requirements than you and Kanye can sample me or Deuce. I don’t care if I never sell a wood record, but I’ll digging for vinyl to find sounds and grooves forever. My addiction is insatiable. And if you’ll notice it is the artists that lack our crazy love for this process that we flame here. See Kanye, 50, Em, Puffy, and fill in the blank. The lack of respect for hip hop protocol scares me because it is one step closer to the dissolving of hip hop integrity, just like Viacom, Wal-mart, Jimmy Iovine, and so on.

 

[o-a-ksavage]

I can really see both sides in this, and everyone is bringing up good points. In the end though, you can either do whatever it takes to make a tight beat, or you can sit there and limit yourself and reflect on how great it was that Led Zepplin hit that drum the way they did. I mean, a kick or a snare is so insignificant to the overall beat (not that it doesn't make a difference) that I don't think it really matters. I mean, if you take a full loop and steal the entire pattern of a hip hop beat that's weak, but taking a snare and putting it into your own pattern? So what. It's the difference between borrowing your friend's sax and playing your own melody, or borrowing their sax and playing a melody that they came up with.

Class, we still haven't heard whether or not you accept JClay's challenge.

 

[Shonsteez]

but i PROMISE you, more often then not, those guys look at guys like us and DONT respect us or take us serious as artists- the exact same way you are looking at people sampling drums from another hip hop artist..

I dont know truth?...Its not the exact same way but it is close. If u want to make a fair comparison, then you really would have to say somethin like: "This guitarist from this band over here is pissed off at this other lead guitarist over there from this other band becuase dude copied the exact same riff and even used it the same way as it was originally used in the chorus to begin with...the only difference between the original and the copied version is that the copied version used a heavy reverb or some bullshit to make it slightly different." Thats basically whats goin on here cuz theres 2 groups: The beatmakers (who sample of course), and the Original Bands/Artists that were sampled in the process to create the finished result.

I suppose its a loose/loose situation....But thats sampling for you, your already essentially steeling someone elses music whomever it may be and using it to make your own music....I dunno, i think what bothers me the most tho is sampling another beatmakers concept, or samples....To me thats just lazy, because Producer A was already "stealing" (sampling) someone to begin with that started out as at least an original concept and idea as far as "oh this would be ill for the chorus in my song".....But then Procuder B over here cant be about his in the same way and instead of puttin in the same work as PA, PB just bites the already bited......Thats what i essentially made this thread to say....

PS - When i initially said somethin along the lines of "At least spend the time to repsect where the sample came from" - ALot of you thought i meant somethin like reflecting on how great so -and-so's guitar sounded with a certain fx, or how dope some dudes kick was cuz of this and that....I didnt mean that at all.

What i meant was: Assuming your actually doing the sampling in the first place. Instead of just biting that record to make yer own beat (basically what sampling is in its own right), at least sit down and simply enjoy that record for why its samples are so dope in the first place. Maybe even learn a little about the bands history and its ethnic roots....Shit like that to me, makes the process more enjoyable and gives you at least a little more repsect for what your essentially stealing in the first place. Hence, why it really T's me off when people dont even wanna do the "original sampling" no more, becuase its bad enough to not even bother doin yer own homework so to speak.

 

[jclay12345]

WGo head and state yer beliefs but dont try to call me out with the cliche "who are u kid!?" routine....If you wanna go that route, i could be equally fucking childish and ask you about why i never heard your fantastic music on the radio as well coudnt I?....FUck that, im tired of when ever someone speeks on somethin like this, you always get some dude that wants to use that kinda repsonse as a valid way to state yer claim....If u believe a certain way, then belive it! - and go ahead and say why, but to me thats a fuckin cheap shot.

I'm not the one on here downing music like I'm all high and mighty. I never claimed to be higher than I was. So don't try the whole I'm rubber you're glue routine on the sly.

 

[Shonsteez]

LOL...Aiight.....Please define how im downing music and im all "high and mighty"? Its like, can no one just get what the fuck im sayin here!?!???...Deeeyyaaammm....All yer doin is misconstruin the whole dam argument in the first place. I would actually like to for once not have Fade close a thread that ends up heated because of peoples misinterpretations.

 

[Sin:Aesthetic]

look i am going to basically agree with duece but say it in a different way.........i believe in sourcing samples from anywhere, i admit i have samples ready for tracks from fairly modern cd's etc..... but if i end up using any of those samples, and even my samples from wax for that matter, for the vast majority of the time i am going to make damn sure those samples sound nothing like the original track

this is where the creativity part comes in...and i think this is what most people are missing....if i ever chose to steal a sample from a modern hip hop track, i would make damn sure i chopped that sample, and took to it with all manner of effects until that sample was well and truly indicative of my talent, and not the original producers talent.....

im sure duece is not complaining at the true talents that make any sample sound original, and turn it into their own work.....cos how the fuck would he know producers were stealing samples from cds, if they had destroyed how it used to sound in the process.....he couldnt possibly....so he must have recognised the amount of cats taking samples and leaving them almost exactly as they were, which is not talent, it is stealing

i guess my point is sample what you want, but its always better to look for the obscure, interesting sounding, unique shit anyways, but make damn sure you do enough to your tune to make sure your tune is your own unique creation, and indicative of your own talents...dont steal stuff, and if you are stealing shit, its just damn crazy to steal from top 40 shit, cos its already everywhere, and nobody wants to hear you bite the same shit thats bumping in every club....not only do people stealing large sections of shit from new producers show a lack of talent, they show a lack of initiative to go down to their local record store and dig

so thats my different spin on shit...but hopefuly still in the same vein as whats already been discussed

 

[A B]

lol yall arguin bout some honour among thieves type ish, but tbh i didnt realize sampling had a whole artform / culture behind it. Guess i got whole lotta learnin to do.

 

[Fade]

You all need to realize that everyone's just expressing their opinion(s). Don't turn this into a closed thread.

 

[jclay12345]

well close it then. lol, I'm just playin. but forreal, it's not as serious as it is being read. we are just voicing are opinions in a stronger more arguitive way and I know that arguitive isn't a word.

but I still say samplin is samplin. Whether it is a drum or a loop. You are respecting the source because you chose to sample it. I don't think it is nothing lazy about it. You still have to be just as creative with a sample as you are without one.

 

[Equality 7-2521]

well close it then. lol, I'm just playin. but forreal, it's not as serious as it is being read. we are just voicing are opinions in a stronger more arguitive way and I know that arguitive isn't a word.

but I still say samplin is samplin. Whether it is a drum or a loop. You are respecting the source because you chose to sample it. I don't think it is nothing lazy about it. You still have to be just as creative with a sample as you are without one.

"and i know arguitive isnt a word".....lol. nice one. i think the word you were looking for is "argumentative".

anyways i agree that debates are good. Although Fade (and the other moderators) does a great job (a greater job than any other web host I know of) of keeping the illmuzik boards maintained, i do feel that some threads get closed prematurely sometimes (not often though). A good debate never hurt anyone. They are only words.

but i disagree that you have to be just as creative with a sample as without one.....evidence be the countless producers who sample something, place loop positions on the sample and then program your everyday boom bap wack shit underneath it. anyways, im not getting back into this thread. heard it all before.

 

[jclay12345]

"and i know arguitive isnt a word".....lol. nice one. i think the word you were looking for is "argumentative".

anyways i agree that debates are good. Although Fade (and the other moderators) does a great job (a greater job than any other web host I know of) of keeping the illmuzik boards maintained, i do feel that some threads get closed prematurely sometimes (not often though). A good debate never hurt anyone. They are only words.

but i disagree that you have to be just as creative with a sample as without one.....evidence be the countless producers who sample something, place loop positions on the sample and then program your everyday boom bap wack shit underneath it. anyways, im not getting back into this thread. heard it all before.

yeah that was the word. lol, preciate it. But the same thing can be said about people who don't sample. They play a sound, loop it, then program your everyday boom bap wackness underneath it. It still takes creativity. Just becaue you have a tight sample does not mean that you can make a tight beat with it. Sometimes I hear people sample stuff into a beat and the beat is not even rappable. i-ight, you don't gotta tell me, but I know rappable isn't a word either. but what is the point of making a hip hop beat that a rapper cannot rap to? Maybe I should start a new thread with that question.

 

[shadeed]

Basically the whole argument boils down to don't get mad if somebody stole a producer's drums if you are stealing them from some old record --it's the same thing!!!
If everybody needs drums to make beats, then it's only the smart thing for some business minded producer to come along and organize some drum kits, put them on a CD and call it "Kanye Drums", that's called evolution.

I really don't care who steals what or who jacks what, a lotta producers who live off digging and sampling have certain ethics about jacking a producer's style and what not,
and that's all good, but it's no need to be mad about it, it's part of the game.

What I do is have sessions with drummers from around the area (Maryland stand up!)
and just have them get busy and record it. Those drummers are excited about the idea of hearing their playing put into a diffrent format (most are my drummers primarily do rock, punk) but like to experiment with hip hop, drum and bass etc.)
If you are that serious about making beats (which most of you aren't) then you would take the time to build a decent drum library and craft your own individual style and sound.
It used to be a sin to bite in hip hop, but it's a whole new era nowadays!

 

[Cold Truth]

ok something to chew on.......

the hostility isnt needed, so if you choose to throw insults either way, then its time to hit the warning button. while i see the point deuce is making, i disagree simply on princeple- to me sampling is sampling, no matter how you do it. the spirit of the whole thing remains in ANYBODY who takes a creative approach to it regardless... NOW.. i disagree with his view on this, perhaps i misunderstood some of it so my bad if i did- but we need to get off the insults- the "high and mighty" type comments.

im not saying anybody specific, im not pin pointing or pickin on anybody.... but the hostility, name calling and little barbs need to go. no it isnt that serious yet but it can easily get there so chiiilllllllllllllllllllllll!

 

[MGTheFuture]

I still think kanye sampling dre's drums from the chronic was - retardo

I like the "culture" of hip hop, and where its going.
Rap - eh, i can do without it.
Too many execs who dont KNOW the culture are fronting and pushing the trash.

And since it appeals to everybody, atleast, thats what mainstream thinks.
The ones who do choose the embrace it, finally, end up bringing their own views into it and start making rules and opinions on a form that was already established way before them.

same thing for the younger cats that get into it.

Kinda sickening.
I cant stand people who dont like hip hop, but like to make beats.
You in the wrong genre...definetely.
And there is many of em.

Im guilty of using these Modern Beats "timbo" and "Dre" kits myself - but they dont sound nothing like the actual kits they use nor do they come from their songs.

 

[Studiophile1234]

Im not much of a sampler, but I respect those that go out and find "rare" music. I mean anybody can bite the mainstream trackz. It seems to be a common practice now. My mom always told me" Dont be the second nobody, be original". Just the ability to find, chop, and flip is a gift. Some people make a living off of stealin from the next man. I mean at least if you gonna steal, change the sounds up. Then again you can be original, and make your own shit from scratch. Nobody can copy the fresh ideas in your mind. Its our most powerful tool.

 

[The-Shadow]

Is this a dead horse we're beating on?

 

[DJ Hoppa]

yes it is.



I agree with Deuce whole-heartedly.

the ONLY sampling I've ever done on a hip hop track is vocal sampling (i.e. ODB - "Hippa to the Hoppa and you just dont stoppa")

Respect your sources. Dig for the originals. Don't sample someone in the same game as your's work.


It's just ethics. Some have em, some don't.

Whatever sounds best I guess...

 

[Cold Truth]

I dont know truth?...Its not the exact same way but it is close. If u want to make a fair comparison, then you really would have to say somethin like: "This guitarist from this band over here is pissed off at this other lead guitarist over there from this other band becuase dude copied the exact same riff and even used it the same way as it was originally used in the chorus to begin with...the only difference between the original and the copied version is that the copied version used a heavy reverb or some bullshit to make it slightly different." Thats basically whats goin on here cuz theres 2 groups: The beatmakers (who sample of course), and the Original Bands/Artists that were sampled in the process to create the finished result.

no........ a better example would be...

-guitar player A plays a riff on a song that he took from old guitarist X, and used the same tones "X" used as his starting point
-guitar player B hears that riff in its new form, has no clue where the first came from, and decides to use the same effect chain and riff in another song
-guitar player B then uses that as HIS starting point the way player A used player X's riff and effects settings as HIS starting point
-player A gets pissed and says player B is "lazy" and "biting" his sound and style, even though player B did the EXACT same thing to player A that A did to X.

THAT is what we are talking about here- or more to the point, a samples x, b samples a, and a gets mad at b for doing to him what he did to x.

its the same thing, exactly. its exactly the same thing, its just that people dont like having the tables tuned on them. its like sayin... "i can sample somebody but they cant sample me, thats just wrong" and yeah i get the whole "you got to dig like the rest of us" thing.....

but then, the original players would say, "why dont you learn how to play and record the way we had to? ya'll are lazy for just jackin all the work WE put into it" and what would you say to them? you are stealing the music they actually LABORED over- all you did was dig through some records, found something you liked, and took in seconds what took possibly weeks to months to write, perform and record-where does a digger have a right to be mad at someone jacking something from him that wasnt his to begin with?

dont matter how its spun, ethics in sampling are imaginary. you are jacking somebody elses work for your own livelihood, who worked a thousand times harder to produce the original work then the original digger did to find it. if the original session players heard a digger complain about a new jack "stealing" the sample that they "worked" hard to find, they would likely go on a rant berating said digger that i cant even begin to touch...

 

[Shonsteez]

I agree Truth, theres no said rule in sampling....But i wouldnt say these things at all if other beatmakers alike didnt take the same "unwritten-rules standpoint". I just take from my influences as we all do. Im not particulary right, but neither are you realistically. I agree on parts like sampling is stealing regaurdless of how you cut the cake, and I agree that there isnt like a sampling bible that says all these things. However, i go by examples made from other influential artists/producers, who in my mind are making positive moves in hiphop rather then degrading it, i kno that doesnt make it right, but i also kno many others repsect the same standpoint. With that said, People like PrincePaul, PeteRock, and others in the similar production style are kind of my models for what drives my present day belief in what sampling is and how some prcatices are bad and others are great. Beyond that, my beliefs are rooted to the earlier way of sampling during what I believe was a more "progressive" hiphop culture around the 90's sometime, no specific date. Point is: People were far more original about theres then they are now, if you dont recognize this then youve lived underneath a rock for tha last decade. If you disagree then fine. But i think that the evidence is prevelant here when examining present day hiphop versus the more progressive years. It really all is connected to that. I dont want hiphop to go back in time, and I dont want people to make 90's rap for the rest of my life - I would however like to enstill a train of thought and common practice in the sampling realm that once existed at least. People get shit twisted waaay to easily and sometimes seem to even argue just to argue, but if you dont respect the same sources for reasoning or the history that once was in regaurds to the argument at hand then these kind of debates tend to fork in completely different directions all together.
Im glad that at least some people relate even to a certain extent to what my initial thoughts and points were here which in return isnt what alot of you ended up defining for me. To me, that means that theres alot more hope for future music to stay "organic" and original. I also appologize for making some things simply common sense in my mind while for others they didnt even have inkling of what i was talkin about. I dunno, i think as long as u understand the context in which i made the argument in the first place what i have put forth makes a lot more sense. With that said, ive basically said my peice, tho i will defend or answer any statements or questions that still bend the reality of what ive said to begin with.

 

[DJ Hoppa]

Ok Truth, check out my whole new catalogue of beats.


They are exactly like the beats on your album, except I sampled them off you and put a different hi hat on em. Oh, and a lil reverb. Im so creative. Same goes for every cat on Illmuzik. I just took ALL your beats, well, i didnt take em, I sampled them. Sorry guys, I now have a catalog of over 2000 beats! And I'm going to sell them all.






a little extreme, yet this is what you are saying is Ok.

Im just sampling!!!