full, orchestral string sound....

[Cold Truth]

i want that full, rich string sound for certain things. does anyone have an idea of how to get it? i saw oceans eleven today, and there is a scene towards the end after they rob the casino and they are standing at this fountain, and the strings from the score are crazy here. there are multiple layers and i was just wondering if any of you have been able to create that type of sound.

 

[vitaminman]

Hey,

If you read electronic magazines, they often talk about this subject as a full blown orchestra is a pretty cool thing to have in your music/soundtrack, and there is an art to replicating it using synths and samplers.

From what I remember of the articles, there are a few things to do:

1. Lots and lots of different instruments: strings (violins, violas, cellos, contra-basses), brass (english horn, french horn, baritone, trumpet, trombone), woodwinds (clarinet, bassoon, oboe, flute, piccolo), percussion (timpanis, cymbals).

2. Lots and lots of layering. A real orchestra will have tons of individual players all playing the same thing or variations of the same thing. There is usually some sort of 'theme' that most players follow, the rest will play harmonies or other melodies which compliment the theme.

3. Dynamics. Something you don't hear very much of in pop music. LOUD passages, and quiet passages.

4. Good sequencing. You'd probably want to use a software sequencer to make a score-type track, trying to accomplish this with something like an MPC could be very tedious as you only have a small screen on which to edit. Things like modulation and volume ramps are much easier with a mouse.

5. Tuning. If you have two violins playing the same melody, it will have a 'thicker' sound because they aren't 100% in tune with each other. You can fake this by running sounds through a light chorus effect, it will give the impression that there are more instruments playing.

6. Reverb. Concert halls have a certain sound about them, big and roomy. If you put a dry string sound (or the whole mix) through a reverb, it will give the impression that the music was performed in a hall instead of a dead room.

7. Panning. If you look at a real orchestra, you will notice that like instruments are placed in groups across the stage: the flutes front-left, clarinets front-right, low brass high-center, high brass mid-center, percussion top left and right...imagine your sequenced orchestra like this, pan your instruments accordingly.

Take care,

Nick

 

[Deez]

Vitaminman your a nikuf genius......... bro you don't under stand the ideas you've just givin me. I usually only use a couple of strings, the way ypu discribe makes it complete, make a track strickly out of strings..
Word up... can't wait to get home and try that.....
Dz

 

[soundboy2]

A friend told me this was the best string samples period,
Check DEEZ out Deez , Also looking for any feed back from anyone that heard or got this.

http://www.garritan.com/home.html

 

[Copenhagen]

Perhaps somebody can get a picture of how an orchestra is placed? So people will know where to pan each instrument...

Also, I know there's pictures of where to place instruments in your mix in "production/mixing books", perhaps that might also help people here.

 

[God]

STRING PLACEMENT

I'll extrapolate. Maybe this will help even more:

The number next to the instrument indicates how many of that instrument is in a philarmonic orchestra. I have given you sample patch names that usually are layered to achieve this effect. Bullet line indicates no placement within stereo field (---) whilst the bold underline ( ___ ) indicates placement of a specific patch/instrument, including its name as a placement indicator.

Stereo Field:


LEFT -------------------------CENTRE---------------------------RIGHT

--------------------------------------------------------________Bass(8)
Violins(28)___---------____Violas(12)___---------_________Cellos(10)

Patch Ideas place these according to the placement in stereo field expressed above.

(14)Violins plays high octave (Left side)
Bright String
Pizzicato

(14)Violins2 plays high octave (Left side)
Stereo Strings
Pizzicato

(12)Violas play midrange selected key octave (Centre)
Thick Strings

(10)Cellos -play second lowest to midrange octave (Right Side)
Thick Strings

(08)Basses - play lowest octave (Right Side/Extreme Right)
Thick Strings
Tremolo Strings
Bass Pizzicato

(58) Background for selection (Usually Centred, Place for fullness however)
Marcato Strings

Make sure you selected the right octaves for each string layer. This one is rudimentary. But works. If you put some nice reverb on it, it will sound realistic, if mixed properly. Definitely will sound fuller. I don't know the synth you have, so you'll have to experiment with your own patches.

For the 50 Cent "In Da Club" sound, put this through a medium reverb through a sonic exciter/puncher placed on maximum. It should do the trick.

WOODWIND PLACEMENT

Stereo Field:

LEFT------------------------------CENTRE-----------------------------RIGHT

------------------__________FRENCH HORNS_________--------------

----------______CLARINET____-----------_____BASSOONS____-----

----------______FLUTES______-----------------____OBOES____--------


Hope that helps. There's some tips on patch placement.

Sincerely,
God

 

[Cold Truth]

god, you got knowledge like "WHOA"....

yeah, that helps, thanks....

 

[vitaminman]

God,

Very nice! I've only ever played in showbands, never a full orchestra with strings, thanks for the detailed information... Certainly you've run across score composers with racks and racks of Akais and Emulators playing one or two 32mb patches each, it's amazing to see how much one can do with the right sounds and a little bit of knowledge.

Something to consider, maybe you have an idea: if someone loads up 15 instances of the same violin patch into a multi on a synth, they're likely to get some problems with phasing/flanging if the same notes for the different parts are triggered at the same time. My suggestion would be to make sure that each note has a different start time and add a little modulation to each part so that they at least can move in and out of pitch enough (hopefully) to not have phase conflicts. Comments?

Take care,

Nick

 

[God]

The reference number (14) violins is simply the number of violins in a philarmonic orchestra. Perhaps that became confusing. It is simply reference.

I should have made it more clear. You do NOT open 14 instances of the same patch for the violin sound, which I stated was "Bright String" in one example. The Bright String itself is not a patch of a single violin, which you know Vitaminman, but a "Violin" patch is an altogether different patch signifying ONE violin being played by the synthesiser. "Bright Strings" is a patch signifying a single layer of multiple strings played all at once at a specified octave, thus, not a single violin sample. This one "Bright String" layer, played at a specific octave, is to REPRESENT 14 violins being played. The Pizzicato strings underneath are another layer.

The key is that the split layer formulation I have given you above involves sonic representations of multiple instruments utilised through the string "layer" patches.

Thus, if each string patch layer (like Bright Strings) are properly panned and also placed at said octave instances, then all will sound very full.

I would never post something guaranteeing any sort of phase problem. There are no phase problems if everything is followed correctly.

Sincerely,
God

 

[TKNK]

2 BE 4 REAL ON MY TRITON I HAVE ABOUT 20 ORCHESTRA COMBINATIONS.
EACH COMBINATION IS A COMBANATION OF 8 INSTRUMENTS WITH EACH HAVING ITS OWN ARP VOLUME, PITCH & SEPERATE EFFECTS ROUTED 2 IT.
SO... BY PRESSING 1 KEY OR DOING A CHORD I CAN PRODUCE A ORCHESTRAL EFFECT THAT SOUNDS VERY VERY REAL.
ITS JUST CUS SO MUCH IS HAPPENING U HAVE KNO OR HAVE AN IDEA HOW TO MAKE YOUR OWN CREATION.

I CAN UPLOAD A COUPLE 2 GIVE U AN IDEA HOW IT SOUNDS. EMAIL ME

 

[Copenhagen]

seeing that God mentioned 50 Cent, I was reminded that I downloaded the midi sequence for it from that site Freakwency posted and I was quite surprised to find the "stab" sound to be an orchestral hit, string hit, guitar sound etc. I had thought that it was just a "stab" that sounded like that. I layer drums and sometimes a few instruments but I hadn't thought it was so used...having downloaded more of those midi sequences to look at have taught me some stuff I ddin't think much about...

Good looking out with the orchestral placement God. I'll see if I can find the actual pictures...

 

[vitaminman]

God,

You're correct, I think I chose the wrong word when I wrote 'phase'.

What I'm trying to say is that, for example, when you send double-notes to a synth, you get that 'tinny' sound...I've always just called it 'phasing' because it sort of represents the sound you get when you run something through a phaser. Sort of.

If someone used a single patch which had a sample of multiple instruments, there won't be any problems. Are you saying though that if someone wanted to double up that sound by loading a second instance of it into a multi, and they both played the same notes at the same time, there wouldn't be any problems with the tinniness? Or should they choose a completely different patch? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Take care,

Nick

 

[God]

Vitaminman:

You indeed are barking up the wrong tree.

I have never said to play the same patch, at the same octave doubled up. You obviously are not understanding me, or I have had a problem in relaying my communique to you. It is different instances of the same patch played at different octaves (for a rudimentary explanation) that would occur. And thus not result in phasing.

Your tinniness description is a wrap around the fact that you indeed are discussing phasing, but are trying to state it differently. I understand studio terminology, and phasing of some sort will occur when two of the same samples are played at exactly the same time, and same pitch, together.

TKNK:
You are discussing the multisample feature of the Korg Triton. I am aware of it. Have you tried panning and layering different multisamples together?

Copenhagen:
I am quite positive that the MIDI download of 50 Cent's "In Da Club" does not contain an overt orchestra hit. Perhaps mixed low in the background, but I doubt it. Perhaps you downloaded the MIDI file from a secondary source, and thus do not have the proper representation of the song in MIDI format. I don't know. However, with proper patch placement in a stereo field, what I expressed above will in fact be an "orchestra hit" of some sort as you mentioned, if sequenced as a staccato.

Please ask more questions if you are unclear about things.

Sincerely,
God

 

[Copenhagen]

^^^not unclear about anything and it does say Orchstra Hit, actually 2 tracks are Orchstra Hits as far as I remember but nevermind, that wasn't mind point. My point simply was that I was surprised to find so many instruments making that one stab. I knew that people would sometimes layer a couple of instruments and I have done so myself but having looked at many of the arrangements from that site I just noticed that often many instruments are layered to make one sound. Thanks for all the info though, I hope to find an actual drawing of and orchstra's placemnt for everyone who would be interested...and also a drawing of where instruments are normally placed in a regular pop, rock, rap etc song.

 

[pirell]

so where do we get these strings anyways? download or buy? <<looks into wallet.

 

[Knock Out]

AHHHH!!!

Me, I'm just going fuckin crazy because I'm getting NASTY at making beats, but getting sample cds with worse and worse sounds. I seriously feel like I'm beyond the average beat, because I'm taking sounds that are completely retarted and turning them into shit you can bop your head to. I always ask this, and I'm waiting for someone to STOP FRONTIN on me: Who has a good sample cd??? I mean one with good orchestral sounds and other strings, not just drums!! I'm willing to pay, just somebody please hook me up. You have no idea what I'm going through with wack sounds. Like I said, I'm just getting better and better at making sounds harmonize, but the sounds aren't great.

 

[Copenhagen]

Knock Out, just out of curiousity and to everybody's info...what's your setup/sequencer, what formats are you looking for in sample CD's?

 

[HaZwaiOh]

very interesting debate. as for sounds, the garritan collection is quite nice, but expensive (like most sample cds)
i use edirol orchestra vsti which came with my master keyboard and i think it´s quite nice...

 

[God]

Good sample CDs, like Gigastudio Orchestracubes go for 400 Euro or more. The sample banks I utilise are from such sample libraries or synthesisers.

Concentrate on the placement of samples you have already, and place them in the stated stereo field I have outlined. You will be surprised at the results.

Sincerely,
God

 

[Knock Out]

*My set up is Fruity Loops lol. I don't care what anyone says about it, I know the program like the back of my hand. I'm switching to an MPC eventually, but for now I like FL. As for sounds, I need wav or .xi samples.