Death of Sampling=Watering down of hiphop

[God]

I was talking with a friend about the state of hip-hop and rock. At least in hip-hop - samples cost a lot to be cleared, so the cost-benefit of having the sample used - or even an interpolation - is not worth it. This is due to the diminished budgets of acts in the music biz.

I found an awesome article at SPIN mag about the "watering down" of hiphop and a possible monetary reason behind it... and it makes sense. Check it out...

Is Sampling Dying?
How greenbacks and red tape are tearing the heart out of hip-hop.

"Simple beats and Auto-Tuned vocals form the foundation of 808s & Heartbreak, Kanye West's latest release. As the title implies, it's a breakup album. But perhaps the split is deeper than even West realizes. His new sound is a bold departure from his previous efforts, but also a challenge to the parameters of what many listeners would consider hip-hop. 808s & Heartbreak doesn't rely on an element once pervasive in the genre: samples. The album doesn't contain any prominent samples, while West's previous release, Graduation, featured them on 10 of its 13 tracks. He is not alone in this change: Young Jeezy's last album, The Recession, boasts just three samples, and T.I.'s latest, Paper Trail, features only four..."

Rest of article:
http://www.spin.com/articles/sampling-dying

That and... maybe Kanye's developed a bigger coke habit that no one knows about.

EDIT:

I guess if you brainwash the peons with radioplay, videos and positive PR. It goes #1. Kanye's new record wouldn't have made it past the demo-submission stage if he were an unknown - and here he is at #1. That's validating social proof for you. Go pick up a book on group psychology. It justifies this:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/chart_display.jsp?g=Albums&f=The+Billboard+200

 

[StressWon]

when I say it it's hating,,,when GOD says it, it's fact. Good read G!

 

[Kontents]

This has been the case for a while. Samples just hold more of a burden then a benefit in beats. Even if you make no profit at all from the beat they can still hit you for infringement. I say make some friends who know how to play music and record the shit out of them and use them to sample from. None the less hip hop is evolving and touching new soil I say we keep at it and it will thrive.

 

[dahkter]

Good article, good post.

I agree with the theory:
high sample clearance fees + lower revenue and budgets = less sampling = more bad keyboard players and more autotune vocals = quality of hip hop goes down

Bottom line, people need to overcome their fear of being sued, make good music, and put it out there for the people to enjoy. If the lawyers come cause you sampled something, then you are probably already in a good position. Lawyers don't chase broke MF's.

 

[Shonsteez]

Good article GOD....
With that said, i believe the real problem lies with the fact that the majority of producers in the game making that decision to not use samples and synths only simply dont have the skills to create good music....
Why do you think theres a slew of 3-note melodies with the same motif sound being played in virtually every club joint these days? Because many of these producers dont even know how to voice chords a lot of the time or create a dope progression....Hence the watering down of MUSICALITY in general.

When people begin to refuse to learn how to play music in the first place how are they supposed to create something that breaks the mold?

 

[LDB]

Monetarily sampling is just dead. It is what it is. As the economy gets tighter and peoples wealth grows smaller sampling will only get worse.

I chop and loop old school samples only like 5% of the time now and it's really just for fun. Labels aren't taking the hit for sampling at all anymore. That shits all on the producer. U may come up with a "classic" track but it won't bring u enough money to buy a "classic" car.

Music is and will become a lot simpler because of the death of samples but if your simple tune rips up the charts you'll be well compensated for it. Some of the hottest club tracks right now are bumping that 808 but instrumentally there simple as can be. With out sampling I can't see how the East Coast can ever take the game back over. The deep south went away from heavy sampling a decade ago.

Example: "Pop Champagne", females go nuts when this song is played. How many lyrical remixes are they up to for this track now? PRODUCER IS PIZZAID!

Good article, good post.

I agree with the theory:
high sample clearance fees + lower revenue and budgets = less sampling = more bad keyboard players and more autotune vocals = quality of hip hop goes down

Bottom line, people need to overcome their fear of being sued, make good music, and put it out there for the people to enjoy. If the lawyers come cause you sampled something, then you are probably already in a good position. Lawyers don't chase broke MF's.

Homie....they'll sue u for what you might get in the future. I wouldn't test 'em like that...unless u know u aren't going to sell too many records.... and if so what's the purpose...just drop it on the internet and let people get it for free. If they want to they'll still come after u though. Don't think money is the only thing they can get!!!! Anything u own of value can be auctioned off for the doe!

Sorta like Shon said, we gotta start learning how to play music. With the ability to sequence 4 and 8 bar loops it's really not that hard. Learn your chords and go to work. A melody is little more than playing around with the keys. Until u can grasp a little music theory stick to those black keys....u can't go wrong!!!

 

[GRAFIK]

Good Article!

I will always believe in sampling. This is how HIP HOP was started. There are true hip hop heads that will always sample simply because they want that sound. You can not get the same sound by replaying a sampling. Just make music and dont worry about sample clearance. If you cant clear the sample then put out a free mixtape CD, and release it. There are still a lot of underground cats that sample and dont seem to have a problem.

 

[dahkter]

Homie....they'll sue u for what you might get in the future. I wouldn't test 'em like that...unless u know u aren't going to sell too many records.... and if so what's the purpose...just drop it on the internet and let people get it for free. If they want to they'll still come after u though. Don't think money is the only thing they can get!!!! Anything u own of value can be auctioned off for the doe!

Technically, you are right. I agree with your points in both of your posts. One thing though - you say "what's the purpose". On that level I'd say there's two reasons for an unknown producer to do some shit with samples:

1. if that is your main technique for making ill shit (meaning you are much better on an MPC playing back samples than you are on a Steinway Piano), then make your great art in the way you know how. You mention "Pop Champagne", right back I mention Pete Rock "They Reminisce Over You". If Pete thought about the law and thought about the possibile finaincial danger, one of the best songs of the twentieth century would have never happened. I guess I would call this "art first, commerce second". Nowadays, the so called artists making music think money first, art second. I personally this this is resulting ina proliferation of uninspiring simple flat music (IMO). Ain't nothing wrong with cheesy, simple, fun music, however it's nice to balance that out with some deeper shit (I know you can make deep shit with good musicians without samples, however there are cats that can't play that can make deep shit with samples, and that's shit that I l personally love to hear - two turntables, a sampler and a microphone).

2. the other purpose of being a sample based producer is exposure. If you're dope with samples and you are unknown, I would say just make your shit and put it out there. Look at DangerMouse, he was no one before he made the Grey Album. That album gave him a name to go on and do tons of good projects. He didn't make any money off of that album, however it gave him an opportunity to have a great career. Same thing with this guy "GirlTalk" they mention in that article. Homeboy sampled 300 different record to make a party album. He hasn't been sued yet, however if he does, he already made a big name for himself and has a big career in front of him.

 

[Relic]

when I say it it's hating,,,when GOD says it, it's fact. Good read G!

HAHA sooo true..

Good read..

Ima keep dojn me and see how it pans out anyway.. Havent hit gold yet so I dont think they are watching.lol
I do both sample and paly it so se la vi.

 

[Kontents]

"It was enormously frustrating, because the decision didn't really decide any actual law; the only citation was the Bible. But it certainly got a lot of people's attention."

How fucked is that shit. Fuck the bible and the 10 commandments.

 

[Shonsteez]

EDIT:

I guess if you brainwash the peons with radioplay, videos and positive PR. It goes #1. Kanye's new record wouldn't have made it past the demo-submission stage if he were an unknown - and here he is at #1. That's validating social proof for you. Go pick up a book on group psychology. It justifies this:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/chart_display.jsp?g=Albums&f=The+Billboard+200

And in the same vein of thought - even tho im sure some will automatically hate me for saying this, i feel like the new Common is following the same unfortunate trend. (However, i think Commons prior catalog trumps Kanyes looking back on the albums hes dropped)...

None the less, i cant even listen to the new Common cuz what made him so dam fly in the first place was the production sound combined with his ill lyrical flow...

 

[Relic]

Fuck the bible and the 10 commandments.

Kiss your mother with that mouth Mr.???

 

[LDB]

And in the same vein of thought - even tho im sure some will automatically hate me for saying this, i feel like the new Common is following the same unfortunate trend. (However, i think Commons prior catalog trumps Kanyes looking back on the albums hes dropped)...

None the less, i cant even listen to the new Common cuz what made him so dam fly in the first place was the production sound combined with his ill lyrical flow...

I agree, Commons body of work is far superior to Kanye....Common should have gotten into the production side of things when he was realllllllllllllllllllllll hot.

Common, like a lot of older Emcees/Rappers, is in a diff't place in his life now. He's more GQ and make up these days. I'm assuming he's chasing those potential hollywood checks. Can't hate on him for trying to feed his fam by any means necessary. Drop a couple movies every year or two with a descent role and you can live good. Those checks come waaaaaaaaaaaay larger than those royalty joints. Today if you're not producing one or two of your singles as a rapper you're not taking full advantage of the game imo.

 

[Formant024]

commercial hiphop...yes...bedroomtechie scene...no

but that's from a euro-perspective, i think most US based hiphop productions are industry based and the rest of the world strives to retain the hiphop feel from the good ol boom bap age. Things that come on strong here industry wise (which is little but the scene is huge) are synth based with some hardcore basslines and reese's (hoover type patches) nothing in the like of US based synthi hip-pop (that 2 finger kb medleys n shit). The rest are sample based and/or combo with synths and 80% is still wack when it comes to synthbased stuff, there's the unusuall ones that go all acoustic but they always tend to go the pop route and some that seem to take the composing route still sample drums (lol).

I think this goes for france, germany or scandinavia aswell, fuck it, even japan and i know there's tonnes of cats in the US that dont care either and still sample the shit out of everything but hey that's me and my prefs cuz i cant be fucked about a lil someone but if im checking coka nostra, the demigods click, brooklyn ac or jzone posse etc...thats hiphop, the rest is just pop music or club material.

When these cat get pushed they'll crossover, no so much due the fact that they used to use samples but its the scene that has grown into such but the scene likes it raw or they just keep listening to their old stuff. The us club banger style doesnt hype the audience, the clips below makes a crowd go beserk (check second-last vid).

here some dutch stuff















and here's one highest dutch hiphop track ranked(#24) in the charts


^^^ from the 100 heads 10 might bounce to this...theyre the only 14 year olds...or your at a teen party lol

 

[slik da relic]

the prob with samplin these days is that noone really looks into transformin the sample... how many youtube vids do i have up to convince everyone to say "yo, this loop is hot, but im not gonna use it"... i still see people loopin and basic choppin... for us to progress, we gotta do more to the sample... of course its not a 5 minute thing, its gonna take a lil more time to do what u want with it... but as u seen in the vids, it can be done to make a sample to sound totally untraceable... i got a sample from an unknown group (Apt 26) and made a beat outta that shit (Portamento vid)! get that loop or chop out ur head and u wont ever get caught.



da relic

 

[Relic]

the prob with samplin these days is that noone really looks into transformin the sample... how many youtube vids do i have up to convince everyone to say "yo, this loop is hot, but im not gonna use it"... i still see people loopin and basic choppin... for us to progress, we gotta do more to the sample... of course its not a 5 minute thing, its gonna take a lil more time to do what u want with it... but as u seen in the vids, it can be done to make a sample to sound totally untraceable... i got a sample from an unknown group (Apt 26) and made a beat outta that shit (Portamento vid)! get that loop or chop out ur head and u wont ever get caught.

da relic

I was gonna mention that..

When we were scrticly SP you only had 10 sec of memory PERIOD..

You can get REAL creative with small sounds with those kind of restrictions..

To me ,and you too slik, the point has ALWAYS been to make the sample untraceable. I have some shit that I DEFY cats to trace.. Its not possible.
I dont think that you can copyright a fuckin note.. you just cant I dont care who played it.

Additionally, when it comes to sampling, hell lets just stop. And while we are at it dont resell records at flea markets , and dont buy older music.
The only reason ANYONE is gonna buy fuckin elevator music is to sample it, in the process musical appreciation is gained. I would have NO idea who the hell Ron Carter was if TCQ hadnt been on his dick and mentioned him in a song. Now I wanna hear his stuff you see?
Cats and companies are so damn greedy ..
Which leads me to this:
Why not sample each other then?
WILL KRS ONE be mad if we all sample and chop and use his stuff?
Will Rakim? Will Pete Rock? How about the Beasties? At what point will it become hippocritical?

Discuss or ignore, just thoughts I had.

 

[slik da relic]

i dont even LOOK for known shit anymore... im choppin open mic promotional cds... im choppin bullshit string melodies in classical music... im choppin my own resampled shit... fukk Dionne Warwick, and anybody else that opposes us... them Niggas will never catch me if i dont open my mouth... the best secrets are the ones u keep to YOURSELF!!! besides, all the known shit has been samplin zillions of times anyway... its been time to run ur shit thru as many filters and fx processors as possible... i think the simplicity, ease and limited features of the MPC, plus just human nature to want results quickly has gotten us lazy... at the same time, so has the abilty to easily record a 4-8 bar loop on a synth with 3-5 notes, and add some drums to it... add to that ur basic rapper that sings basic raps, and u have what Hip Hop is today... shit.

da relic

 

[Formant024]

^^^ nah its a good point, but its indeed to bring the unseen and unheard, regardless of what you used. There is no outfit to become a hiphop producer, but they all start with a sampler and everybody wants an 950, mp or sp (or use a computer). Who is then not tempted to sample...

 

[LDB]

To be honest...u guys are talking about a diff't type of sampling. Hell no Relic, no ones is going after anybody for using a note from someones joint. It doesn't happen like that.

Some people make intricate small chops and use it. No one can trace that. How Slik does it withe saw tooth joint it changes it and makes it unrecognizable but most people sample "wanting" the samples to be some what recognizable. That's the difference. There taking bits and pieces that you know came from say an old soul joint and rearranging the chops and creating a new melody. That's the side of sampling that is dead!

Technically everything u bang out of your keyboard is a sample of and instrument of some kind created by someone else!

I like the way Slik does his sampling but seriously, until u sell a track or get something of your own in steady rotation with samples in it you really don't know if it can be traced or not.

 

[slik da relic]

^^^ nah its a good point, but its indeed to bring the unseen and unheard, regardless of what you used. There is no outfit to become a hiphop producer, but they all start with a sampler and everybody wants an 950, mp or sp (or use a computer). Who is then not tempted to sample...

its not the temptation that is the prob... the prob is, not manipulatin the sample further and further... we hafta make it harder for them the same way they make it harder for us... findin obscure samples is a good start, but u still must take it to the point where u cant even id the OBSCURE sample... it requires maybe a lil more work, but it is def not impossible... we have all types of machines, plugins and programs that wouldve cost thousands of dollars years ago available to us for only a few hundred bucks... expand ur horizons, become more innovative and creative, and Hip Hop will continue its sampled roots.

i feel u LDB... and i do have 3 trx out to artists right now, unfortunately, they are not mainstream artists, so i mite not know for yrs if i did a good enuff job on disguisin them (wtf im "Slik" dA Relic... of course i did!! fukkers) but then again, i do everything necessary to make sure ur not gonna trace them... the prob im havin right now is convincin bigger artists to accept my style... thats really my biggest hurdle.

da relic