death and greatness

[classic]

How do you think the death of an artist effects their legacy and greatness? Do you think when an artist dies a realitvly unknown person can become an Icon or legand....

I mean think about it, would big pun, big L, pac, and biggie, be considered the "legends" that they are if they were still alive?? I dont know man.... this can be applied to all forms of art..

How do you think dilla's death will effect his legacy?? Do you think 5 years from now he will be considered the greatist producer of all time?? I bet a whole bunch of people who never liked him are gonna jump on the bangwagon....

your thoughts....

 

[BAUSMAN]

imo i dont think b.i.g or pac were the greatest rappers ever... dont get me wrong they were both really talented and at the top of the game but thier death pretty much certified them as #1. i think pun was the greatest spanish rapper ever and big l just had so much potential and was on his way to blowingup... he was accually one of my top 3 my favorite rappers when he died

 

[Vince]

anybody who dies at an early age becomes a 'pop icon'.

it's the same with jimi hendrix, jim morisson of the doors, kurt cobain of nirvana and so forth.
james dean, elvis presley, john lennon...

if you die while you're on the top(or about to become number one), you'll remain on the top.

tupac's albums were making sales records while he was alive, he wasn't unkown at all. i haven't heard of any unkown characters getting KNOWN just because they died.

people who otherwise wouldn't have picked up a dilla tape, or recongnized his name might pick it up and think "oh, it's the guy who died. i might have to give it a listen".

dilla was a praised producer while he was alive, any 'post mortem' recognizion will be deserved, and they won't be unexpected.

 

[pancakebunnny]

#1: PLEEAASSE dont let this become a thread where everyone throws opinions on who they think are legends and all that. Dead horse. Beaten to death already. Leave it at that.


I think timing is a huge factor in this idea. Like Vince said, if you're on top at the time of your death, then that artist will never really drop below that point. Now, lets take Wu-Tang for example... Had they all died as a result of some sort of freak accident during their peak between "36 Chambers" and "Wu-Tang Forever" (can't forget all the great solo joints around that time)... Had they died at that moment, people's perception of them and their opinion on the Wu's influence on the sound of hip-hop would have been exponential. The would have never had the opportunity to disappoint heads with "Iron Flag" or "The W" or "Immobilarity" or anything dipping below their peak.

I can't say I'm familiar with Jay Dee as far as all of his material, from beginning to growth to current, but I can say that from everything I've heard, I'd never listened to anything disappointing. No, I haven't picked up "Doughnuts" yet... So I don't know how he peaked off. If "Doughnuts" is half as good as his few contributions to Common's "Be", then I'm pretty sure homey secured his place in hip hop production history by going out in the best way possible.

Class, I was thinking about this same question when I was checking up on Led Zeppelin... in 1980, their drummer John Bonham died in his sleep (homey went way past drunk and asphyxated in his sleep... he choked on his vomit. damn. what-the-fuck. how ironic of a way to go)... anyway, my point was, the group decided they couldn't be Led Zeppelin without Bonham, so they quit at that point. That shit is fucking beautiful. Their role in rock and roll history and style was pivotal... they incorporated their influences into their style and created a whole new style of rock and roll. Had Bonham not died early on, and the group stuck together, who knows what would have happened. Maybe their next few albums would have taken their talent to whole new levels... maybe they would have creatively burnt out, reaching their plateau with "CoDa", then just dropping flops.

I know Common and No I.D. called it quits after they mutually decided they'd reached their peak. Maybe more artists ought to do that.

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Vince summed it up, but to add to that a lot of people really did not know who he was unfortunately, especially if you were not immersed into hip hop until recently, and with a lot mags and such where people can recant who was doing what in the 90's that's a flaw in a lot of cats into hip hop, they dont study the history and just sort of feel the now is what hip hop music is but the evolution of the art is always of east coast beginnings and those producers or really DJ's thus for the haters LOOP based production the easiest for a DJ/producer, I feel more blessed because that was the era that I more closely identify and relate to hip hop wise LOL but yeah I dont know if he is gonna be looked at like the greatest though, all respect due because he had his following that knew his work and contributions, I really don't know if you you put it into perspective like say a PAC, because at that time he was the personification for a lot of people "Thug" and a whole generation that followed that ...sagging pants, bandana...yeah its a stereotype but there was a lot of cult followers even before his death to be honest maybe not as wide of a notoriety in Life as say Biggie, a lot of people still put PAC into the some say wack digital underground,and his songs spoke for a lot of people that identified with his messages, and with Biggie I think he sorta owned a lot of air and club time back in the mid 90's forth and the whole Puffy & Bad boy dynasty with Junior Mafia also had such a following but much, much bigger for any that can remember (like I can while it was all going down)....so for two ikons like them to have been cut down that actually were making a huge impact like it or not on Hip Hop Culture sort of made good predictors of immortal Hip Hop Ikons....but Biggie said it best "you're nobody until somebody kills you" which going out the way that both of them did sort of put things in a violent and gangster perspective which sort of in a sick and dark way made the lifestyles that they rapped about even more credible and real so this also was another aspect to why they both are the ikons, but as far as J-Dilla I think he gonna rest in peace and be respected for all of his contributions just as much and more in the aftermath of his short life.

 

[StressWon]

a good topic and hopefully we can all maintain the opinions to what they are,,,opinions.

as for me, i think death does come into play with "Legend" status. Most def. BIG and PAC were nice but not the greatest. Big L was indeed a lyracist and was on the verge of blowin up big...I was down wit him since "MVP" so i knew dude was ill. Pun as well. When talkin Hip Hop however,,,greatness is matched by lyrical skills,,,dont get that shit twisted right. So look at it that way,,,but mainsteam and death both take part,,,,but look at Freaky Tah, dude was just a hype man,,,,,does thi now make him the greatest of all hupe men? I think there's all different sceanrios to be factured in,,,1

 

[The Bastard]

people def do hop on rappers nuts once they die

 

[bigdmakintrax]

a good topic and hopefully we can all maintain the opinions to what they are,,,opinions.

as for me, i think death does come into play with "Legend" status. Most def. BIG and PAC were nice but not the greatest. Big L was indeed a lyracist and was on the verge of blowin up big...I was down wit him since "MVP" so i knew dude was ill. Pun as well. When talkin Hip Hop however,,,greatness is matched by lyrical skills,,,dont get that shit twisted right. So look at it that way,,,but mainsteam and death both take part,,,,but look at Freaky Tah, dude was just a hype man,,,,,does thi now make him the greatest of all hupe men? I think there's all different sceanrios to be factured in,,,1

I totally agree, I think Biggie as a freestyler and actually for some of his written punchline does approach a very high status but their status as ikons after death really has to do with the total package and cultural impact and artistic influences..these cats probably had a major impact upon a lot of the top rappers that are out today no doubt...so their status come not just being the best rapper, Biggie and his entourages and Puffy they owned the mainstream limelight for more than a few years and they were what a lot of people at that time sort of pictured as the more uppity gimmicky, glittery hip hop sort of the early bling and ice mentality I mean look this....(Mace, Lil Kim, Junior Mafia, Puffy LOL) they may have started out in the streets but they became larger than life because of the media outlets like BET...(where I used to work back in the day) but for some PAC in life was smaller but here again, not so much him being the best rapper but those in the hood that identified with being a THuG and the plight of the ghetto and black family....which the reason why a lot of people outside of that can never understand PAC it wasn't for everyone but it was real and from the heart every last thing he rapped about though but what made him unpopular with a lot was his dis in the song "Against All Odds" where he launched the lyrical assault against Puffy and Nas and the NY hip hop inner circle...anyhow yeah this is a good thread and I know its about Jay D but Classic made it larger discussion with the original.....again Excellent thread!

 

[Chrono]

yeah interesting thread.. in a way gettin shot down reinforces the struggle spoke out in the lryrics we come to appreciate their character. kinda like a full circle type of thing.. that reminds me heres an interview with big l's mom over her son incase you missed it: http://www.allhiphop.com/features/?ID=993

 

[pancakebunnny]

Once Rakim dies, I'm pretty sure he'll be nudging Big and Pac off the infamous #1 title.

 

[DJ Excellence]

NO > dilla wasn't mainstream enough for that to happen

 

[classic]

NO > dilla wasn't mainstream enough for that to happen

neither was picasso but look what happend when he died......

 

[Craig Gantt]

People are like pawns only valuable under certain circumstances in a bigass world wide game of chess. The only way a pawn (mc) in the music industry can become important enough to be a legend is to either luckily take out a menacing opponent piece or crossover to the other side

 

[StressWon]

neither was picasso but look what happend when he died......

as a former "Art major",,,,Picasso sucked balls,,,a bit off topic but he sucked none the less,,,,and a vaild point Class.

 

[Chrono]

people just want what they can't get

 

[o-a-ksavage]

The answer to this question is YES. Rappers for sure gain status with death. Like BIG said, you're nobody til somebody kills you. The best recent example is Mac Dre in the bay area. He was relatively unknown amongst the casual bay area rap fans a year and a half ago, and then as soon as he died he gained immediate legendary status, and everyone and their momma acted like they'd always been his number one fan.

Once Rakim dies, I'm pretty sure he'll be nudging Big and Pac off the infamous #1 title.

No chance. Big and Pac died at the top of their games, Rakim's long since fallen out of the spot light. Eventually everyone dies, it's just rap is so new an art form that you haven't had normal old age style deaths yet. Once that starts happening, those type of deaths won't be as big a deal as getting murdered at the top of your game, and therefore they won't achieve the same legendary status.

 

[sYgMa]

Now, imagine Dr Dre dying in a freak accident... DAAAAAMN! He'll be a legend... close to a God of hip hop...

But, for real, it's a shame that people are interested in an artist only because of the hype around him... I'm guessing the medias and music industry are the ones who gain from that post mortem fame...

I mean, Biggie just dropped another album... and he's been dead for almost 9 years now... and I dont think the proceeding will go in a charity fund...

 

[JP hardboiled]

Nice introspective question Classic....It seems that when someone dies tragically it brings more attention to their music or whatever they do. If Zakk Wylde, whom you probably never heard of, dies today in some freak accident you'll want to check out his music. Then you discover how music talent and good music that person has and you wonder how much better he couldn't gotten if he didn't die, which leads to the people saying they were great/a legend, in reality there are many living legends that are not noticed... There's alot the blues player greats living right now, but I probably won't hear about some of them unless they die.... I wasn't a Tupac fan before he died. I started listening to all his music after and I was feeling his lyrics. Its sad that it takes someone dying for people to notice their music but I guess that happens.