Bob Katz - "The Loudness War"
- Thread starter 2GooD Productions
- Start date
-
warzone (nov 5-9) signup begins in...
Formant024
Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Imo, the war is lost simply because the other mastering people state that loudness is perfectly fine if its fits the track/album/genre. There's a small margin between overly loud and perfectly loud, with or without clipping in the progress. Knowing when you crossed that line (in regards to the medium it is mastered for) is far more important.
Obviously, an acoustic/unplugged recording with clipping for max loudness is bad and unnecessary but for dance/hiphop related music it sometimes gives an edge. Unfortunately, those converters used in clipping are pretty expensive and amongst the same high end grade converters some are not always cut out for that job (reason why a lot of mastering houses use more than 1 brand ADC).
I cant dismiss bob katz, hes not my hero but i get his point but its irrelevant for lots of the music out there commercialy speaking. At the same time, he explains the basics well how theoretically should be but thats not real life and the arguments on which people would heavily defend bob katz are the people with a 50K listening room..... about 98734983787438973 more people have earbuds that dont go loud enough lol.
Obviously, an acoustic/unplugged recording with clipping for max loudness is bad and unnecessary but for dance/hiphop related music it sometimes gives an edge. Unfortunately, those converters used in clipping are pretty expensive and amongst the same high end grade converters some are not always cut out for that job (reason why a lot of mastering houses use more than 1 brand ADC).
I cant dismiss bob katz, hes not my hero but i get his point but its irrelevant for lots of the music out there commercialy speaking. At the same time, he explains the basics well how theoretically should be but thats not real life and the arguments on which people would heavily defend bob katz are the people with a 50K listening room..... about 98734983787438973 more people have earbuds that dont go loud enough lol.
Lord Lav
Beatmaker
It's funny, I only watched that Thriller video a week ago. Our minds must be in a similar place Fade....
Time will probably tell that 2012 (arguably 2013 too, though I think the tide is now turning), was the most laughable year for mastering.
In years to come, people will probably balk at the idea of owning a 2012 remaster of a record as it will be known as the year music was most heavily compressed and taken to the absolute extreme for loudness taking all the dynamics out making everything more squashed than it ever has been before.
I think it's just a natural progression as technology has continually allowed us to do more. Living in a digital download age where most of us choose to listen to music via an mp3 player has certainly added to all this. If you listen to an old record through earplugs whilst walking down the street it can get frustrating as it's difficult to hear amongst the noises of daily life, even when the volume is whacked up on full. A newer record doesn't suffer from this problem so much. Though our ears might suffer in the long run....
We've wanted to push things as far as we can as technology continues to allow us to do more, but now we've got to the point where louder starts to make everything quite considerably worse.
The same guy who made the 'Loudness War Vs Thiller' video also did a blog about why the latest Daft Punk album is so popular. He believes part of the reason is because it isn't a loudness war casualty and has managed to maintain it's dynamics. http://productionadvice.co.uk/daft-punk-mastering/
In an age where everyone is trying to make the loudest record to stand out the best thing we can probably do in this day and age release more dynamic music as this probably stands out even more than loudness.
Overall I agree with what Formant024 has said. Going for louder even to the point of clipping isn't necessarily bad. Some of my favourite records have clipping going on all over the place. There's still a lot to be said for that punk-esk mentality in music mastering. Part of the reason some of my favourite records are my favourite, is because of their obnoxious sound. That being said everything needs balance and I think the scales have tipped too far in favour of very, very, loud. But then sometimes in life you have to keep pushing until you find where the boundary is.
Time will probably tell that 2012 (arguably 2013 too, though I think the tide is now turning), was the most laughable year for mastering.
In years to come, people will probably balk at the idea of owning a 2012 remaster of a record as it will be known as the year music was most heavily compressed and taken to the absolute extreme for loudness taking all the dynamics out making everything more squashed than it ever has been before.
I think it's just a natural progression as technology has continually allowed us to do more. Living in a digital download age where most of us choose to listen to music via an mp3 player has certainly added to all this. If you listen to an old record through earplugs whilst walking down the street it can get frustrating as it's difficult to hear amongst the noises of daily life, even when the volume is whacked up on full. A newer record doesn't suffer from this problem so much. Though our ears might suffer in the long run....
We've wanted to push things as far as we can as technology continues to allow us to do more, but now we've got to the point where louder starts to make everything quite considerably worse.
The same guy who made the 'Loudness War Vs Thiller' video also did a blog about why the latest Daft Punk album is so popular. He believes part of the reason is because it isn't a loudness war casualty and has managed to maintain it's dynamics. http://productionadvice.co.uk/daft-punk-mastering/
In an age where everyone is trying to make the loudest record to stand out the best thing we can probably do in this day and age release more dynamic music as this probably stands out even more than loudness.
Overall I agree with what Formant024 has said. Going for louder even to the point of clipping isn't necessarily bad. Some of my favourite records have clipping going on all over the place. There's still a lot to be said for that punk-esk mentality in music mastering. Part of the reason some of my favourite records are my favourite, is because of their obnoxious sound. That being said everything needs balance and I think the scales have tipped too far in favour of very, very, loud. But then sometimes in life you have to keep pushing until you find where the boundary is.
wrightboy
Formally Finnigan
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 7
the bad thing is that people who don't necessarily know much about music, but are avid music listeners don't see it that way. i have friends who listen to some of the stuff i make that say, "it sounds good, but it's not loud enough, turn it up." i bring them something that looks like a solid block in a DAW, and they lose their minds. it sounds like shit to me.
i have another friend that has subs in his truck, he rides around all day, blasting his music as loud as possible, but if you ride with him, you can't hear any of the words....just noise. now i have a 10" sub in my car, but i eq my shit to where it's not obnoxiously loud to people outside of the car, and you can also clearly hear every word being said/sung. but sadly enough, that's just not what the people want.
i have another friend that has subs in his truck, he rides around all day, blasting his music as loud as possible, but if you ride with him, you can't hear any of the words....just noise. now i have a 10" sub in my car, but i eq my shit to where it's not obnoxiously loud to people outside of the car, and you can also clearly hear every word being said/sung. but sadly enough, that's just not what the people want.
God
Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
It's been proven that people gravitate towards songs that are louder when played on the radio or on a playlist, because the "louder" a song sounds, the "better" the average listener thinks it is.
Things are going to get more and more fucked up. All those dumb party girls in NYC, Hollywood or wherever don't give a shit about the "loudness war," they just want to hear their favorite song over and over again. Do you think a Justin Bieber fan can tell the difference? Fuck no.
As for the Daft Punk album, the reason for its success is that it's good.
I read Bob Katz' book and he knows his shit. He's also right. But this is just studio engineer "elites" talking about shit that doesn't matter for 99% of the people.
Most people consume their music in the car or on earbuds. Nobody gives a shit about dynamics anymore. It's sad, but true.