At what point does sampling feel like stealing ?

[Iron Keys]

As I've been making a lot of sample beats lately (and enjoying it), it's started to raise a question again for me (which used to deter me from it)...

At what point does sampling feel like stealing???



I remember as a young monkey starting out trying to produce music, trying to emulate the style of my favorite revered producers... when I eventually discovered majority of those amazing records were sampled. I felt robbed. The effort I used to put into making those melodies and sounds, my fave producers didn't even themselves?


Anyway, fast forward. Sampling is fun, it's like musical collage... something sentimental about sampling old records and turning them into something else. But I recently went to sample something I thought was really old... but it turned out to be new. I then suddenly felt like to sample it would be 'stealing' or 'cheating', like 'I didn't make this music'.

It's interesting however... if I was making EDM I wouldn't think twice about 'sampling' something new, I'd probably feel more inclined to.
In EDM it's called remixing. In Hip-Hop, sampling. There can be a distinction between the two, but they're also pretty much the same thing.

Had an interesting session in music college, where our songwriting tutor was testing our boundaries (not in the way Fade might);
People were largely against people stealing a whole song, lyrics or whole lead melody.
But he went down the list... woild you take a song structure? A hihat pattern? A chord? A chord sequence? And most people were happy to take something. Was good food for thought.

So i was wondering...

At what point do you personally draw the line when it comes to sampling???

 

[2GooD Productions]

When they sampled Dido for "Stan" it wasnt old, it also publicised her album and I think she probably sold a lot more albums because of it. I sample anything, from anywhere. If I hear a bit I like I will sample it, and then try reach out to the original artist if needs be, a rare few reply.

 

[OGBama]

How @2GooD Productions many replies have you gotten and throw out names please!

 

[Fade]

I never listen to anything new when looking for samples. I guess it's just a habit but I like checking for only old stuff because I like to find obscure music and there's a lot of weird stuff out there. One time I found a tiny piano part from a random Italian horror movie from the early 1970s. It turned out to be really dope. Also, the older stuff just has a great sound, from vinyl, for example.

As far as stealing, I see it more as cheating - when it's little parts it's fine. It's when it's a blatant loop with not much done to it, it seems like cheating. I've always thought that if you're going to grab a loop, at least do something to it.

I understand what you're saying about some of the classics. When I found out many years later a lot of them were basically just a copy of the original it was a big disappointment. However, there's also plenty of older songs where I don't know how they did it! Just check out https://www.whosampled.com and spend hours either amazed or disappointed.

 

[Ys Man]

Personally any sampling is ok if changing genres or styles, but nowdays simply rehashing old tracks seems to be ok, so the world is your oyster and there are no boundries anymore, dont worry about it as it wont be your responsibility to clear them anyway.

Im also with fade where i dont really sample anything past 1989 and try and use stuff never used before, in reality if it sounds good its good thats the only rule in music

 

[2GooD Productions]

Personally any sampling is ok if changing genres or styles, but nowdays simply rehashing old tracks seems to be ok, so the world is your oyster and there are no boundries anymore, dont worry about it as it wont be your responsibility to clear them anyway.

Im also with fade where i dont really sample anything past 1989 and try and use stuff never used before, in reality if it sounds good its good thats the only rule in music

Actually you made me realise I wont sample anything, I wont sample hip hop. That feels like stealing to me. Also me recreating beats is so rare, even if I find a used sample I will try to flip it my own way.

 

[Kane the MOD]

Legally sampling is always stealing unless you get the permission of all parties holding copyrights.
So, legally you should feel guilty.

 

[2GooD Productions]

Legally sampling is always stealing unless you get the permission of all parties holding copyrights.
So, legally you should feel guilty.

Thats the bottom line

 

[Fade]

Legally sampling is always stealing unless you get the permission of all parties holding copyrights.
So, legally you should feel guilty.

Legally they can...

 

[Ys Man]

Legally sampling is always stealing unless you get the permission of all parties holding copyrights.
So, legally you should feel guilty.

its only stealing if profiting otherwise its just noise

 

[V.J. Retro]

I never listen to anything new when looking for samples. I guess it's just a habit but I like checking for only old stuff because I like to find obscure music and there's a lot of weird stuff out there. One time I found a tiny piano part from a random Italian horror movie from the early 1970s. It turned out to be really dope. Also, the older stuff just has a great sound, from vinyl, for example.

As far as stealing, I see it more as cheating - when it's little parts it's fine. It's when it's a blatant loop with not much done to it, it seems like cheating. I've always thought that if you're going to grab a loop, at least do something to it.

I understand what you're saying about some of the classics. When I found out many years later a lot of them were basically just a copy of the original it was a big disappointment. However, there's also plenty of older songs where I don't know how they did it! Just check out https://www.whosampled.com and spend hours either amazed or disappointed.

I was guilty of this when I first stated producing. I use to take a melody from a sample pack and put everything else on it without changing the sample itself. It took me awhile to change that approach and start making the samples unique. I didn't do that with all of my beats though. Many of my earlier beats were recording of me playing instruments.

Instead of the word stealing, I think a more fitting word would be plagiarism. You can only steal a song if it's written on paper ; a physical object that you can take. If it is a recording and you take a certain audio of that recording without giving the original artist credit i.e. sampling, then it would be considered plagiarism.

However many sample based Hip Hop producers will use a collage art as an example of why sampling shouldn't be considered theft because if the artist is taking different pictures and putting them into one masterpiece, then shouldn't be sampling be looked at the same way? Taking different audio and musical ideas and putting them into one song?
The rabbit hole goes deeper in terms of sampling and copyright especially with one shots and fair use. I've read a book on the Art of Sampling by Amir Seid. Highly recommend it if you want to learn all about it.

Fair Use Sampling Project: Sa’id – “Break Light Off”

Fair use, a doctrine codified in U.S. copyright law, acknowledges that there are some forms of borrowing that do not require permission of the copyright holder of a given work. Fair use applies to all copyrightable material, including, but not limite

beattips.com

 

[Iron Keys]

However many sample based Hip Hop producers will use a collage art as an example of why sampling shouldn't be considered theft because if the artist is taking different pictures and putting them into one masterpiece, then shouldn't be sampling be looked at the same way? Taking different audio and musical ideas and putting them into one song?

Well technically collages are subject to the same kind of copyright laws.

 

[iDeaLoGiK]

I mean at the end of the day, it is stealing, regardless of how you chop it up. But there's definitely degrees of egregiousness with it. If you're just cutting up a loop and slapping drums and a bassline over it, it's obviously less justified than chopping up parts, playing with pitch and creating an entirely different groove with it.

I'm of the opinion that it's about what you're going to do with the beat. I, personally never intend to sell anything I make. I just make it cause its a hobby more than anything. Something to do other than playing video games and choking the chicken.

As far as I'm concerned its basically just playing roulette with which artist is going to be litigious about it. Not everyone is going to be Metallica. Definitely a safer bet to go with older stuff from groups that aren't around anymore. Hell, if you go back far enough the track you're sampling will be in public domain and its fair game too.

 

[Dusty B]

I actually like sampling new music. The way I look it at, when hip-hop was founded, they were often sampling soul and funk records that weren't that old at the time. So I just tell myself I'm paying to homage to classic hip-hop whenever I use a more modern sample. I've flipped a few new soul/R&B like tracks from indie artists into a hip-hop twist recently and had a lot of fun. I also listen to a lot of alternative rock, so if I find a song from an up and coming indie band, I actually find it cool and fun to twist it into a hip-hop track.

 

[K-waz]

I used to have my limits on sampling records. Never sample #1 songs on the charts, Never sample a perfect song (ex: Micheal Jackson "Thriller" or Prince "Purple Rain") and Never sample something that someone else already chopped and flipped. I'll wait 3 to 5 years to sample it or never at all. All that's out the window To answer your question At what point do you personally draw the line when it comes to sampling??? Only the ones I can't get cleared for a project

 

[Dusty B]

Y'all influenced me to break the rules and sample a jazz track just released a couple weeks ago into a modern boom bap beat ()...

@K-waz and now I'm flipping Thriller to the point where it's unrecognizable stand by...

Some of my favorite beats are when folks take a popular song and completely spin it, to the point where you wouldn't recognize it unless they disclose the samples or incorporate an Easter egg. I guess I just like seeing/listening how folks were able to work around constraints, it's interesting to me.

 

[K-waz]

Y'all influenced me to break the rules and sample a jazz track just released a couple weeks ago into a modern boom bap beat ()...

@K-waz and now I'm flipping Thriller to the point where it's unrecognizable stand by...

Some of my favorite beats are when folks take a popular song and completely spin it, to the point where you wouldn't recognize it unless they disclose the samples or incorporate an Easter egg. I guess I just like seeing/listening how folks were able to work around constraints, it's interesting to me.

I cant wait to hear it

 

[unaufadox]

On a track I plan to release I'll likely take a chord progression (like 1625) and that's about it. With that, I can choose a key, expand the chords and add my own voicing to them. I have control of the rhythm, groove and melody. That is enough for me to say yea, that's my work, I created that. That falls into the category of, I didn't create my bass guitar or I didn't build and program my iMac Pro but, I still consider the music I create with them my own.

At the other end of the spectrum and more directly answering the question, if I were to sample a chorus, a vocal, a drum loop, a melody and/or the exact chordal movement of a track, I am stealing or borrowing....I am using the soul of something which has already been created (and may have been loved by millions) and I am reworking that. The juice has already been created, now I am borrowing that juice, adding my own flavour to it and sharing it with my name attached. If it wasn't borrowing or stealing...if it was my original work, I would not have to pay royalties

Just to add, if I sample a chorus of a track that has been very successful, when someone hears the track they think of the original. Then they hear what I have done and could say 'oh man that bass is slamming!! What a great track! Great producer!' but they are going from a position of already liking the original, not my track. I may get the props but...I didn't create the juice. Kayne West's 'I wonder' is a great example. For me, the simplicity, sincerity and honesty of the original (Labi Saffre - My Song) IS Kanye's whole track. I am not saying Kanye did nothing....far from it. But it's not there if the sample is not already feeling great.

 

[K-waz]

On a track I plan to release I'll likely take a chord progression (like 1625) and that's about it. With that, I can choose a key, expand the chords and add my own voicing to them. I have control of the rhythm, groove and melody. That is enough for me to say yea, that's my work, I created that. That falls into the category of, I didn't create my bass guitar or I didn't build and program my iMac Pro but, I still consider the music I create with them my own.

At the other end of the spectrum and more directly answering the question, if I were to sample a chorus, a vocal, a drum loop, a melody and/or the exact chordal movement of a track, I am stealing or borrowing....I am using the soul of something which has already been created (and may have been loved by millions) and I am reworking that. The juice has already been created, now I am borrowing that juice, adding my own flavour to it and sharing it with my name attached. If it wasn't borrowing or stealing...if it was my original work, I would not have to pay royalties

Just to add, if I sample a chorus of a track that has been very successful, when someone hears the track they think of the original. Then they hear what I have done and could say 'oh man that bass is slamming!! What a great track! Great producer!' but they are going from a position of already liking the original, not my track. I may get the props but...I didn't create the juice. Kayne West's 'I wonder' is a great example. For me, the simplicity, sincerity and honesty of the original (Labi Saffre - My Song) IS Kanye's whole track. I am not saying Kanye did nothing....far from it. But it's not there if the sample is not already feeling great.

You made a good point but let me tell you this. Can you name a song that's original? Every musician/artist borrow a piece from everyone. R&B/Soul music was the first to sample or replay someone bassline, melody or even the words. Hip hop gets the bad rep because it was never accepted as real music. You can use a midi and flip it different like you would do a sample. Your song example (Labi Saffre - My Song) did you know that song never hit the charts until Kayne sample it and made #49 in 2022... Labi Saffre had another hit and it went #14 on the charts "It Must Be Love" and this album came out in 1972. The way "US" hip hop producer flip samples and midi are unmatched and no genre can't do what we do and that's why they hate on little brother aka Hip hop

 

[Dusty B]

You made a good point but let me tell you this. Can you name a song that's original? Every musician/artist borrow a piece from everyone. R&B/Soul music was the first to sample or replay someone bassline, melody or even the words. Hip hop gets the bad rep because it was never accepted as real music. You can use a midi and flip it different like you would do a sample. Your song example (Labi Saffre - My Song) did you know that song never hit the charts until Kayne sample it and made #49 in 2022... Labi Saffre had another hit and it went #14 on the charts "It Must Be Love" and this album came out in 1972. The way "US" hip hop producer flip samples and midi are unmatched and no genre can't do what we do and that's why they hate on little brother aka Hip hop

100% I've discovered so much cool music I likely wouldn't have listened to just by checking the sample. One could argue Dido's fame is a credit to Stan.