Another police shooting

[ManDAmyth]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/index.html

The brother of the victim said he wants "justice".

I can't side with my brother on this one. If you call the police about a gun dispute and the operator can audibly hear someone in the background saying "I got a gun", then the police show up and the guy is pretending to have a concealed gun under his shirt then acts as if he's pointing at the cops. You are going to get shot, and the police would be justified in the shooting.

The guy who said police should have to wait to see a gun before they shoot is a moron. Criminals would just keep their guns in their shirt, jacket or paper bag and walk around with them raise them at cops and open fire.

I understand the guy didn't take his anti-depressants. This is a tragedy, it's not an example of trigger happy
policemen. Apparently, the cops gave this kid every chance they could before opening fire.

If a cop tells you to drop the weapon or to get on the ground and they have their guns drawn, get down. Whether the cops are justified or not, if you don't comply you'll get shot. Black people should know this more than anyone.

If there's public outcry against this I'll be dissapointed in my people. Black people need to stand up and take responsibility for ourselves and stop playing the race card every time out and save it for real instances of injustice.

Our communties have more rights and opportunities than ever but we've taking multiple steps backwards. We are quick to always point the finger at someone else for our plight.

My father's generation grew up in America when racism was practiced openly with vigor. It was never used as an excuse to accept impoverished conditions, crime, poor education or any other self-decrepit behavior.

 

[dacalion]

Ive got mixed emotions about this one, the mother didn't sound very hysterical on the phone, she was a little bit calm for her son to be threatening anyone with a gun. She also told them that he hadn't taken his meds and he was psycotic, then you have the witness that said he dropped the brush and raised hhis hands and the cops opened fire...

On the other hand, he was out of order and pretending to have a gun and apparently he was convincing enough for them to open fire on him. If I were a cop, I would have fired also (putting myself in their shoes).

First thing, I have to ask myself is, if they knew the kid was mentally ill, why didn't someone think of using either a stun gun, taser or rubber bullets? With the amount of cops that were on the scene, it seems like they had enough time to figure out a way of disarming the guy before shooting him.

I feel that the shooting will be justified but I feel like they could have made a better decision. Depending on how the mother handles it, I believe they could win a Civil Suit against the Police Department due to the circumstances.

This is a good one for Relic.

MOF

 

[Relic]

Fuck a rubber bullet if the guy is psychotic and I think hes got a gun , hes dead, and I aint gotta be a cop to do that...

I was gonna post this story yesterday but then thought..nah..
It sucks, but I think this one may have 1 been justified at best 2 at worst one of em over reacted.

 

[Ash Holmz]

i agree with myth 100%.

 

[Ozmosis]

The problem is that when cops fire their gun, they are shooting to kill. Wheather a person has a gun or not, when you have him surrounded all you need is a few shoots to the leg to stop them. I know its tough if your put in that situation, but if your supposed to be a cop who is properly trained for these type of situtations, they should have more control then just open fireing on someone, and if your that scared you need to find a new line of work.

 

[Relic]

The problem is that when cops fire their gun, they are shooting to kill. Wheather a person has a gun or not, when you have him surrounded all you need is a few shoots to the leg to stop them. I know its tough if your put in that situation, but if your supposed to be a cop who is properly trained for these type of situtations, they should have more control then just open fireing on someone, and if your that scared you need to find a new line of work.

Ive mentioned that to them, they are trained to shoot to kill, as are anyone trained to shoot.
Thats why you dont pull it out unless your gonna kill.
But a good leg shot is nice..

 

[ManDAmyth]

Shooting a guy in the leg doesn't guarantee he's going to drop the gun. Rubber bullets don't guarantee that either.

Even if one or the other makes the guy fall and drop the gun, what is going to stop him from reaching for the gun again?

The cops probably took this into consideration.

Also the cops arrived at the scene after being called because I guy had a gun. If he dropped a brush....that's not a gun. They can't assume because the suspect dropped something else... he doesn't still have a gun on him.

Second, the guy had many chances to drop the gun before it came to that point.

The cops have to assume he has a gun on him given all the information they were entailed.

And in this situation the cops have to shoot to kill. Otherwise they are putting their own and other people's live in danger.

Now, if the guy had a knife. Yes, shoot him in the leg. It only takes a split second to raise and haphazardly fire a gun that can strike someone in the vicinity.

There are unjust shootings. This one is not one.

 

[Ozmosis]

Shooting a guy in the leg doesn't guarantee he's going to drop the gun. Rubber bullets don't guarantee that either.

Even if one or the other makes the guy fall and drop the gun, what is going to stop him from reaching for the gun again?

The cops probably took this into consideration.

Also the cops arrived at the scene after being called because I guy had a gun. If he dropped a brush....that's not a gun. They can't assume because the suspect dropped something else... he doesn't still have a gun on him.

Second, the guy had many chances to drop the gun before it came to that point.

The cops have to assume he has a gun on him given all the information they were entailed.

And in this situation the cops have to shoot to kill. Otherwise they are putting their own and other people's live in danger.

Now, if the guy had a knife. Yes, shoot him in the leg. It only takes a split second to raise and haphazardly fire a gun that can strike someone in the vicinity.

There are unjust shootings. This one is not one.

I understand what your saying, but if your supposed to be trained correctly(And im no cop) Im sure the acadamy donst teach a person to just open fire with as many gunshots as possible to take a guy out if you have him surrounded. You slow him down, close in when possible. He reaches for a the gun pop him again, close in and take him into custody. The cops had the advantage so it didnt call for a all out fireing squad. I know its easier said then done, but its proof most cops arent being properly trained.

 

[ManDAmyth]

most cops arent being properly trained.

I agree with you 100% on that. The training is not that great to begin with then it is basically non-existant for the rest of their careers. Real life is not the movies.

The scene at the end of "The Negotiator" where the cops shoot the gun out the guys hand to prevent him from killing himself.... don't happen in the real world. If they did, more people would have their heads blown off.

Get a gun and go to the firing range, even if you've never shot before your just as accurate as most uniformed officers.

These guys aren't marksmen (or swat even), so even if they are intending to shoot a guy in the leg it might end up in his gut.

Also, what if they miss. It's very easy to miss shooting somebody's leg or arm, even if you are a highly accurate shooter. You're not shooting at a stationary object.

Even with superior training, the cops will always move under the following motto: If a suspect puts himself in a position where he could potentially fatally injure any bystander (cops included) they will use deadly force to subdue that person, regardless of the person's mental state. Any other approach involves to much of an innocent being shot and maybe killed, and they can't let that happen.

And it's perfectly logical why the wouldn't put themselves in that position.

 

[dacalion]

I agree with you guys for the most part but with what you guys are saying, remember that we are talking about a psycotic kid in this instance, if we were talking about a known killer or even a normal man then OK. It just appears to me that these guys had the time to evaluate the situation. Like I said, I would have shot him too if I were acting on instinct but if I were in command, I think I would have analyzed the whole deal first.

As far as the rubber bullets, I would have considered especially knowing that the kid is sick and nobody has seen a gun. Had they seen a gun even knowing that he was sick, OK drop him. My dad used to tell me "don't pull a gun unless you intend on shooting it, don't shoot it unless you intend on killing." Another fact, cops are trained to shoot atleast twice, proving without a doubt that they had all intentions on killing. I do think that a rubber bullet may have made it known if he had a gun or not and the whole thing could have been avoided at that point. He and anybody else wouldn't have known if it was rubber or not, he would have thought that he was shot.

I think that a leg shot would have been in order for this case if there were no other means of dropping him, a leg shot would show the parents, the city and the nation that they tried to stop him rather than kill him. Im having a hard time swallowing the use of deadly force in this case. In all actuality a leg shot can kill a person too but it just wouldn't look as much as they were just trying to kill him.

great topic,
dac

 

[2GooD Productions]

My question here is why shoot to kill?
If you are going to shoot someone, why does it have to be shoot to kill?
He could have just been wounded.
Unless they plainly have a gun and are pointing it directly at you you are under pressure to get off a shot and so dont have the time to aim a good shot to disarm, which is understandable. But it doesnt take a sharpshooter to shoot someone in the hand or arm or shoulder. Just a thought, now the guy is dead, not really necessary.
That doesnt take anything from the guys stupidity, he desrved to get shot, but killed no.

 

[ATmusic]

The teen put an object under his shirt and told his mother around the time she phoned 9-1-1 that he was going to say he had a gun,
............................
So the mother wasn´t sure he had a gun but chose to tell the cops this on the phone? This part seems funny if it is at all true.

Kid is dead though...sad. He needed help clearly.
Sad but this predicament wasn´t hard to forsee. You say you gotta gun and aren´t afraid to die like you´re about to spray evrybody in the vacinity......

Cops need to be RE-taught "ambush strategies" though and couldn´t they be like 2 cops sent in for this call and have them easily and calmly decide on a proper "disarm the assailant" procedure?

Seems like they had nuff time for that.