Afghanistan.. To Be There or Not To be There..

[LDB]

lmao....do you realize CHINA has us by the balls right now and for the distant future? If it were not for them buying up our bonds life as you know it would have stop'd before Obama became President. Once again, this shit is deeper than you could ever imagine.

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

Europe is made up of many sovereign states with different languages and views. As it stands right now, there is no superpower called europe, its very very close to becoming a reality, but its not there yet. There are many rivalries between nations, and world war/cold war grudges, the balkan wars etc etc etc..
So to bunch us all up into one is a bit unfair.
The USA's recent history under the bush administration on foreign affairs does make it considered the biggest terrorist on the world stage.
And also the USA's recent battle record there is nothing a super power can do with conventional methods to fight against the invisible enemy that is guerilla warfare.
The world doesnt need america to come and save it from itself. The world doesnt need a police force to get it in check. It needs fairness and equality. Blowing up people, destroying families, destroying sovereign states, trying to change the world in your image is despotism, it drives terror into the hearts of the enemies with carpet bombing, hi tech weapons. War is evil, unless its for survival. Then its life or death, there is only ever one bad guy, the aggressor, any defender of home is righteous, whatever name they are given.
The whole idea of pre emtive strikes is criminal.

Say hyperthetically that china attacks the USA tomorrow, would you not defend your land with everything you have? Would you not fight to protect your family, fight to reap revenge on those that bombed your child while he/she was at school?
Would you fight to keep your way of life or would you surrender and take whatever comes?
Would you excuse the deaths of many thousands of your countrymen?
Will you hand over your freedom? Thats the big question.

I figured what I said would come off the wrong way. I didn't mean the citizens of the country are jealous, I was referring to the governments. And yes I totally agree that we invaded somebody's land and they have every right to defend the land anyway they know how. I can't disagree with that. It's just the way it is.

But, lets go back to 9/11, regardless of your feelings on it all we have is the official story to go by, so according to the official story should have we just sat back and let it go? Brush it off or do something about it?

The point I'm trying to make is exactly how you said it, how do you fight an invisible nomad enemy that can hold there own that are trained in the same tactics that we use? You can't do it following the conventional rules of war, because our enemy is not fighting using the same rules.

That is what I'm getting at. I understand the case for moral integrity and all that, but all it's doing is tying our military's hands behind their backs and saying go lock down this country and make it safe. It can't be done.

But the propaganda is being propagated by everybody, everybody has an agenda, and nobody really is getting the straight story, you have to read 10 to 15 stories about the same issue in order to get the whole deal.

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

lmao....do you realize CHINA has us by the balls right now and for the distant future? If it were not for them buying up our bonds life as you know it would have stop'd before Obama became President. Once again, this shit is deeper than you could ever imagine.

No, it is perceived that China has us by the balls. China needs us just as much as we need them. China is currently overvaluing their currency by 5 times what's its worth. talk about economic turmoil if that info was to actually come out in a confirmed report.

Not to mention China is on the verge of Revolution, the businesses and people are fed up with the Communist regime and they want to move to an even more free-market based economy. That is why China hasn't been cracking down as hard on people speaking out against the regime.

China is dealing with a flury of problems right now, their years of shady business dealings are catching up with them as we speak. As I said before The Bankers and Corrupt politicians have really screwed the pooch. There is more money owed in debt then there are total assets in the world.

It's all Fiat currency, which is only currency only backed by faith of the debtor to be able to pay it back. No Fiat currency has ever lasted more than 100 years. We are approaching the breaking point.

I agree things are way bigger than what they are telling us, and what they aren't telling us is that the entire world monetary policy is in its death throws. We are approaching very dark times in this world. China needs us just as much as we need them, and the thing that worries me is that somebody is going to hit the reset button and we will be living in a nuclear winter for the next 10 years.

China wants to be paid back by us because if they were to cut us off their economy would sink. This whole deal about Global Warming and all the other asinine ideas they are coming up with has nothing to do with the solving the problems that they are supposed to solve, the whole purpose of that type of legislation is for them to dig deeper into our pockets to maintain power.

The entire worlds financial system is a Ponzi scheme. All it takes is one person to ask to cash out and the house of cards will fall. We have been living a lie for decades, and just like every other lie it always gets exposed.

 

[2GooD Productions]

I figured what I said would come off the wrong way. I didn't mean the citizens of the country are jealous, I was referring to the governments. And yes I totally agree that we invaded somebody's land and they have every right to defend the land anyway they know how. I can't disagree with that. It's just the way it is.

But, lets go back to 9/11, regardless of your feelings on it all we have is the official story to go by, so according to the official story should have we just sat back and let it go? Brush it off or do something about it?

The point I'm trying to make is exactly how you said it, how do you fight an invisible nomad enemy that can hold there own that are trained in the same tactics that we use? You can't do it following the conventional rules of war, because our enemy is not fighting using the same rules.

That is what I'm getting at. I understand the case for moral integrity and all that, but all it's doing is tying our military's hands behind their backs and saying go lock down this country and make it safe. It can't be done.

But the propaganda is being propagated by everybody, everybody has an agenda, and nobody really is getting the straight story, you have to read 10 to 15 stories about the same issue in order to get the whole deal.

The taliban offered up osama bin laden, they had him and offered him to the USA on one condition, that they had proof of his guilt, they didnt have any to provide. As 911 was happening George Bush senior was dining with Osamas brother. George Bush also has very close ties with china.

The only people tying the hands of our soldiers are OUR politicians
The war needs to be exposed as the corproate scam that is is, then the troops can come home honorably knowing they are as much victims of this crime as all the people killed in the war.
Then we can go about punishing those guilty of the crimes, the corporate bosses and corrupt politicians that use our money to finance their own criminal empires and power trips.

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

The taliban offered up osama bin laden, they had him and offered him to the USA on one condition, that they had proof of his guilt, they didnt have any to provide. As 911 was happening George Bush senior was dining with Osamas brother. George Bush also has very close ties with china.

The only people tying the hands of our soldiers are OUR politicians
The war needs to be exposed as the corproate scam that is is, then the troops can come home honorably knowing they are as much victims of this crime as all the people killed in the war.
Then we can go about punishing those guilty of the crimes, the corporate bosses and corrupt politicians that use our money to finance their own criminal empires and power trips.

I forgot all about that aspect. Yes though I agree 100%, something needs to expose this BS for what it is. That is the main thing that really concerns me though is bringing the troops home with the only explanation given is that they couldn't get the job done.

Yes, I think we are all on the same page here it's just being said in different ways. That is what I was meaning by the whole ally situation. America, had or has the clout to tell them to step aside and we can get it done. But the politicians are more interested in empire building and not concern for their own citizens.

 

[skidflow]

fuck war...that shit fucks up cats psyche...after war you stay on guard duty the rest of your life...

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

fuck war...that shit fucks up cats psyche...after war you stay on guard duty the rest of your life...

I know a few vets and that is the truth, used to be really good friends, but when they got back from tour just wasn't the same. They were on some other stuff, just couldn't relate anymore.

 

[LDB]

When you personally know the horror of war, when you've actually served over seas where if real shit pop'd off your life expectancy was a few minutes at best and you're being told this to your face during training (before the Berlin wall fell), when you have mental problems after seeing shit the average human being will never have to witness or close friends that you served with gets deployed and never comes back home and you wonder "why him/her and not me", I say again U HAVE NO CLUE.

 

[dacalion]

Yes, I think we are all on the same page here it's just being said in different ways.

BINGO!...LMAO

dac

 

[2GooD Productions]

BINGO!...LMAO

dac

Yeah I agree. We agree on most of it, no point arguing over the things we dont agree on.

 

[dacalion]

Yeah I agree. We agree on most of it, no point arguing over the things we dont agree on.

This is funny because some are saying..."I WISH we could just blow everything up (using the word "WISH" is acknowledging that we cant) and others are saying "we cant do that because of blah, blah, blah..." and theres a third group that saying both "I wish we could but we cant because of blah, blah, blah..." LMAO

Whats funny is how often this is done in other threads/topics also.

This is Relics fault for asking such a complicated question like...Afghan, to be there or not to be there?"

HAHAHA

 

[Relic]

I am the Thought Provoker...

It would be nice if we could get these places to do better and their people didnt have to suffer though.
We could just kill everybody on earth to keep us all from suffering.
THATS IT!

 

[7thangel]

wow.
first let me say that, thanks to bush and cheney (and mccain) any movement in afghanistan by the u.s. is 8 years too late.

but this bs about carpet bombing the people of afghanistan and pakistan is beyond ridiculous. advocate a war crime and don't whine or cry if another country does it to you.

doc, your rants aren't really worth addressing.

as far as hiroshima, it was revealed after the war that japan tried to surrender 5 separate times

a little on that here http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

 

[dacalion]

7th, your iq isnt worth addressing. You obviously dont know the difference between an opinion and a rant.

Peace King,

dac

 

[7thangel]

7th, your iq isnt worth addressing. You obviously dont know the difference between an opinion and a rant.

Peace King,

dac

yes please inform my low iq about the rhetoric in these posts and how they don't qualify as a rant. and while your doing that, tell me how a rant also doesn't include an opinion?

And honestly I could really care less about what the rest of the world thinks of us. Especially Europe. They were the worlds top dog for 400+ years and then after fighting 2 World Wars they depleted their resources and America became the worlds sole super-power by default. The Europeans will always have a grudge with us because of it. The Europeans could settle this problem on their own if they wanted too but they would rather talk shit about us then when a situation pops up they want us to come in a handle the situation.
[..]
Keep trying to appease our soft allies that don't want to do anything for themselves that talk shit about us, but when they run into problems they want us to protect them when somebody is picking on them.

[...]The US has been the superpower and has(had) the political clout to tell our allies to shit down shut up and let us handle the situation. Before the financial crisis all we had to do is threaten them with cutting the aid we give them.

I understand there are lots of back room talks that goes on that we don't know about, but it's politics and those talks are centered around what the US can do to expand it's empire. The talks have nothing to do with the war it self, it's all politics.

We had to remove Saddam from power because he would held us back from the goals in Afghanistan. Ironically Saddam hated suicide bombers.

The world is not all peaches and roses. It's great that people want to up hold the moral integrity of the US, but has anybody been paying attention to the laws they have been passing over here that have been shredding constitution? Sure, but does anybody ever put two and two together? It's like we have to fight a war this way to uphold our moral integrity, but hey we are going to pass this law that guts the bill of rights, but don't worry about that though its all for your "protection" and the safety of your family.

So what is it the troops have to play by the old school rules while they are getting slaughtered meanwhile by the time they come back from duty the country doesn't look anything like it did when they deployed?

I'm mean seriously. You have to start looking at the bigger picture, this stuff has been going on for decades. It's all distractions while they strip our freedoms, and the excuse is usually because it's for the "children". And people fall right in line with it.

And as far as what the world thinks about America, fuck them. I don't give a shit about people that want to ask for our help when they get into a situation they can't handle and then want us to come help them out of the jam then turn around and talk shit about how America is Evil and all the other propaganda the spew. Europe wants to see our downfall so they can reclaim their Superpower status in the world.

It's all politics. And it's politics on the high school level. It's I hate this guy because he has something I want. Or I'm going to clique up with this guy because he can help me in my life.

FUCK THAT! screw them, I say pull out of Afghanistan and cut off all aid to everybody. They won't make it very far, their socialist policies would destroy them if they didn't get the billions in aid we give them every year. If we adopted a flat tax got rid of the income tax and imposed trade tariffs on China China would shrivel up and die in a matter of years, not to mention the very real problem they have of overvaluing their currency would come to light and the BRIC(Brazil, Russia, India, and China) alliance than none other than Goldman Sachs was instrumental in setting up, would whiter and die.

And as far as America being considered a "Terrorist Organization" by the other people in world, fuck them, cut off their aid and see how long they last. That is exactly what I'm talking about. They want to call the US a "Terrorist Organization" but at the same time they have no problems cashing the checks we give them for aid.

Screw them, we've been trying to keep up with the Jones' for too long and it's killing our economy. It's about time America teaches the world a lesson and just pull out of everything and tell them to handle their own down problems.

The question I have is in 20 years when China becomes a super power are people going to start calling them a terrorist organization? I mean they are already sending people to mine Africa and run the locals out of jobs, for their own profit. Hell the human rights abuses they do to their own people, but people bow down to China though. It's all based off of false pretenses.

Did you know we have a deal cut with China that states we will offer protection for them in Afghanistan while they mine and explore the resources? I don't think many people hear about that.

The main point I'm trying to make is that nobody is ever going to like everybody there isn't ever going to be world peace, and all Afghanistan is a proxy war, the real war going on is an Economic war. The situation is so much deeper than what any news organization is reporting. It's all propaganda.

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

Alright, so since you want to use my posts as an example of something you don't want to address let me go ahead and correct your rant on the whole thing being Bush, Cheney, and McCain's fault. Trying to put all the blame of Afghanistan on Bush, Cheney, and McCain, you need to go ahead and throw all the Democrats in there too because they are also explicitly complicit in giving Bush and Cheney the powers to go on their Imperialism adventures. So save the partisan rhetoric for somebody else.

Also check this link for the definition of rant:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rant

And this one for the definition of opinion:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

And please do me a favor if you don't have anything constructive to say about my positions just don't say anything all about it. You posting what you did about what my opinion is was very immature.

 

[7thangel]

Alright, so since you want to use my posts as an example of something you don't want to address let me go ahead and correct your rant on the whole thing being Bush, Cheney, and McCain's fault. Trying to put all the blame of Afghanistan on Bush, Cheney, and McCain, you need to go ahead and throw all the Democrats in there too because they are also explicitly complicit in giving Bush and Cheney the powers to go on their Imperialism adventures. So save the partisan rhetoric for somebody else.

Also check this link for the definition of rant:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rant

And this one for the definition of opinion:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

And please do me a favor if you don't have anything constructive to say about my positions just don't say anything all about it. You posting what you did about what my opinion is was very immature.

no, sorry, we're not talking about iraq we're talking about afghanistan. bush and cheney were constantly asked by generals for troops in afghanistan which they refused. 20 thousand at it's height compared to 100+ thousand. that decision was on the wh. you can try to see that as partisan but the funny thing is i didn't say the repubs, i was very specific.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/10/mccan-the-view-diversion/
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/22/cheney-afghanistan-speech/
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/29/santorum-afghanista/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june08/fallon_01-18.html
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/24/mccain-tora-bora/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1511700.ece


and? take the stuff i quoted you saying and explain on how that isn't a rant. you don't even bother to define who the 'allies' are, pretty important if your talking about cutting off aid.

how could the europeans solve this problem if they wanted to?

who are you appeasing? who is stopping america from expanding it's empire? how big of an empire do you want? so who has set the rules and what are the rules?

how did saddam hold you back from achieving goals in afghanistan?

which new rules have shredded the constitution?

list all the countries in the last 10 years that have begged america to save them and then turned around to call america evil.

you have evidence that europe wants the downfall of the u.s. so they can reclaim the superpower title?

again, who are all these socialist countries that are getting aid from the u.s.? a list please and links to how much aid they're getting

so a trade battle with china (and presumably other so-called allies) won't be detrimental to americans? and why a trade battle again?

who are all the countries calling america a terrorist organization? and how much aid are they getting? numbers

so the u.s. is in other countries not for self interest at all, including bases, aren't doing anything for their own reasons, whether for good or security, and are only out there because they have been asked to?
so apparently they are different then other nato and world powers, who are in places for self interest, good, bad, security, etc. so how will isolation improve things?

who are these people bowing down to china? i didn't realize china wasn't being criticized for it's lack of human rights, it's trade practices, it's continued devaluing of it's currency, it's relationships with certain countries...wow, you hear something new everyday.

i'm curious, is one of those policies that you want people to shut up about, torture?

 

[dacalion]

yes please inform my low iq about the rhetoric in these posts and how they don't qualify as a rant. and while your doing that, tell me how a rant also doesn't include an opinion?

OK

but this bs about carpet bombing the people of afghanistan and pakistan is beyond ridiculous.

That is a rant.

7th your iq isnt worth addressing.

That is an opinion.

get it?

Look, I have no beef with you whatsoever. If my ranting/opinions arent worth commenting on then dont refer to me at all. Its simple.

dac

 

[7thangel]

OK



That is a rant.



That is an opinion.

get it?

Look, I have no beef with you whatsoever. If my ranting/opinions arent worth commenting on then dont refer to me at all. Its simple.

dac

your name doc? check again. it's not my fault you mistook doc for dac. i thought the subsequent quoting of some one that wasn't you might have given an idea who i was talking about

 

[Doc Vigilanti]

Man Listen,

If all your going to do is post links from an extreme left-wing rag of a "news" organization I'm not even going to waste my time trying to refute what you posted, and to make it perfectly clear I read the first sentence of your post and saw more Partisan talking points and stopped reading then I saw your "sources" and it pretty much confirmed my thinking.

I'm just going to tell you straight up for future reference, I'm not going to waste my time reading posts that regurgitate the party line. I can get that from talkingpoints memo, daliykos, slate, huffingtonpost, MSNBC, CNN, etc. for the left wing side of things and for the right side of things I can get it from FOX, Redstate, powerline blog, hotair, the Weekly Standard, National Review, etc.

Now you want a legitimate reason to say I have a rant, okay here is one.

I'm so sick of the yellow journalism in this country of having to read foreign news papers and 15 different freaking articles about the same topic to figure out what the hell is actually going on it makes my blood boil. So I'm not even going to waste my time reading something that regurgitates the same non-sense.

This whole Dem vs. Rep Left-wing vs Right wing, is a bunch of fucking bullshit only meant to divide us. So you have to a make a decision either follow the same two headed dragon off the same cliff that each of them are currently driving us over, or get with the program and realize that special interest runs the show and we are just pawns. Your choice.

And just for shits and giggles, we had Osama in our sights when Clinton was president and Clinton decided to NOT give the kill order. And just for more giggles, when the Reps had the majority they didn't have a super majority where they could ram-rod anything they wanted through. Even at the peak of their majority they still needed 5 dems to pass what ever legislation the prez wanted because it takes 2/3 of a majority of the senate for a law to pass the senate. And no what was passed by the congress was Congress delegating their powers to the Executive Branch. Congress all voted to go into Afghanistan, both Dems and Reps.

And lets just put it this way let's just agree to disagree on politics and not go there, don't start shit with me about it and I won't continue the shit back. If you don't like my opinion fine just ignore it. But don't let this stupid disagreement about politics affect other discussions on other topics on the board.

We'll just agree to disgree okay?