Sidechaining/ducking.

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GoodShot

Member
Is ducking/sidechaining used in whatever beats you make?

As I've mentioned previously I don't have much mixing or production experience.
I've used this method before to make the bass duck when the kick comes in but most times to be honest I don't hear enough of a difference in the sound to think I need it all the time.

I don't actually even know how much this technique is used in all difference genres.
 
I sidechain my kick to my bassline in every track I make, it is an essential part of getting the most out of both in a mix.
If I sample something but want to replace a kick for example, I will sidechain my replacement kick to the sample, thus ducking the original kick allowing mine to replace it.
Heres my latest beat as an example, I sidechained my kick to both the bass and the sample in this one.


You need a fast compressor like an 1176 FET compressor, or the Waves C1 that I use for sidechained compression, an optical compressor like an LA2A isnt really fast enough.
I set the attack to as fast as possible and the release to as fast as possible, ratio of 4:1 and bring the threshold down until I get about -12db of gain reduction, I find around -12db works best for me.

Sidechained compression is used heavily in many genres, especially house music on strings and basslines etc, EDM, hip hop, pop, drum and bass. Getting your head around compression, when to apply it and how to apply is an essential tool in music production to stand out above others IMO. Finally getting to understand compression was one of the biggest hurdles in my mixing ability.

Without sidechained compression the combined summing of bass and kick can cause your master bus to clip, or the bass may mask the kick so that the kick slips further back into the mix and is harder to make out.
 
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Iron Keys

ILLIEN MBAPPÉ
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 645
bass duck
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Iron Keys

ILLIEN MBAPPÉ
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 645
Is ducking/sidechaining used in whatever beats you make?
I don't actually even know how much this technique is used in all difference genres.

Sometimes.
When it needs it.

What are those times for me;
- musically; maybe I want my track so have 'pumping' feel, not in the EDM way, but to make it feel like my kick drum is smashing tf out of everything.
- loudness; To create a bit of headroom to stop my kick and bass note 'summing' (two sounds hitting at the same time; in this example, when a kick of -6db peak hits with a bass of -8 peak hits, they might 'sum' to a -2db or whatever, sidechaining may enable me to keep that 'summed' peak lower, which could give me more ability in making the overall track louder.


to be honest I don't hear enough of a difference in the sound to think I need it all the time

Now there's two things to this
- maybe your ears are still developing; in Hip-Hop, typically you wont want as pronounced a sidechain as in EDM. It's a lot subtler, and so this may not be immediately 'noticeable'. For example, on 2G's track, I probably wouldn't have even paid attention or immediately noticed a sidechain, until I knew to listen to it. There's a lot of subtlety in mix-engineering. The more advanced you get the more intricate those subtleties become. It will all come with time and practise.

- maybe your ears are there, but the track doesn't need it; sometimes, a track just doesn't need something. More than that, it may even sound better with the kick and bass summing together. Something to be always aware of, is not falling into the common trap of thinking 'I have to do this'. This thinking is very common when you start out, and can be hard to shake, especially reading all these advice or YouTube tutorials saying 'you must do xyz' --- what happens is you aimlessly go into a mix just 'highpassing cause you're supposed to' or 'have to compress my drums', but maybe you don't have to. And if you don't have to, then you're likely doing harm to your mix.* The most important thing in learning to mix, is to LISTEN and ask yourself 'what does this sound need'. Then you can look for answers and solutions to that.

* Getting relatively 'okay' mix is fairly easy, and it's pretty damn attainable without applying any processing; without EQing, without compressing etc. (When you're producing 'in the box', using samples and VSTs etc). The main thing is about setting the levels (volumes) of each sound and getting a good 'static mix'. This would be a good thing to focus on getting a decent handle on to start.
When you hear people whose mixes sound absolutely WEIRD and bad, then it's usually because they've done loads of random compression and EQing 'just because', 'cause honestly, to make a mix as bad as some i hear, you need to actively be doing that. You couldn't achieve that stuff just using your faders (as in mix would not sound that bad if just using faders. at worst would be 'your levels are off')
 

Iron Keys

ILLIEN MBAPPÉ
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 645
You need a fast compressor like an 1176 FET compressor, or the Waves C1 that I use for sidechained compression,

@GoodShot 2good is not wrong here, but personally, you only need to use a stock compressor for sidechaining. That's all I use.

The only time I've been using a 'special' compressor for sidechaining, is if I'm doing specific mid/side sidechaining. Otherwise stock is absolutely fine and very low system resources.

The only time I reach for special compressors such as the 1176 or LA2A is when I'm chasing a specific 'sound' on say vocals or whatnot.
 
I would add to what @Iron Keys said, its some great advice. Because I find it essential to use sidechained compression, doesnt mean you have to too.
Everything you add to the mixing chain can help or be detrimental, especially if you dont understand why you are doing something.
Everything you do you must do for a specific reason. I have my go to mixing tools to solve certain problems from experience.
Always check that what you have done improves the sound by turning the plugin on and off, if it doesnt sound better, work with it until it does or try another tool to fix the problem that needs fixing until it sounds better
 
@GoodShot 2good is not wrong here, but personally, you only need to use a stock compressor for sidechaining. That's all I use.

The only time I've been using a 'special' compressor for sidechaining, is if I'm doing specific mid/side sidechaining. Otherwise stock is absolutely fine and very low system resources.

The only time I reach for special compressors such as the 1176 or LA2A is when I'm chasing a specific 'sound' on say vocals or whatnot.
as long as the stock compressor is fast enough and allows sidechaining then yes, it should be fine.
 
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Listen bro, we don't all have i9 processors to be slapping 1176 and 2As all over the track willy nilly, some of us probably struggle to load more than one :woot: :LOL:
Thats why I use the C1, has a pretty low overhead, sidechains easily and does what it says on the tin lol
FL Limiter has a great compression functionality for sidechaining and you can see visually how its ducking too, but sometimes its best to ignore the visuals and use the ears, but for learning it can help.
 

Fade

The Beat Strangler
Administrator
illest o.g.
Sidechaining and ducking is very important in a mix but like @Iron Keys mentioned, I would start with the basics first, barebones with a minimum amount of effects. Just having the levels right for everything can go a long way.

But it also comes down to what you're mixing. You might have a sample loop and your drums on top, so maybe the kick doesn't need to duck in and out because of the way the sample is. Maybe you're also using the sample as your bassline as well, so in cases like that it's a matter of just finding the right kick to match up with the sample. For example, I've heard plenty of beats where the drums (specifically the kick) is way too light-sounding to match up with the thickness of the sample, so the drums just sit on top, empty-sounding.

The most important thing to remember though is "garbage in, garbage out". If you start with crappy drum sounds or samples, your beat will either sound like that or you'll spend lots of time trying to make it sound better.
 

BiggChev

ILLIEN
Battle Points: 11
A cool technique to really get a sharper/tighter sidechain is by using a ghost trigger, specifically a wave form.

Most any synth has tempo-synced LFOs or wave tables. Load up an instance of Massive (or synth of choice) create a basic sine wave and sync it to your tempo. Essentially, get it synced so that an 1/8th note equals half a since wave cycle. Play in notes to the desired pattern. In hip hop you would want it to match your kicks, house music have it on every down beat. Mute this track and set as the trigger to your compressor. The result is a defined, consistent envelope for the sidechain. This also works well for filter gates etc.

@Iron Keys - the upside to this, is that you can create ONE Sidechain bus triggered by the ghost bass note.

As far as preferred compressor, the stock Compressors in Logic are pretty good. I particularly like being able to flip the view to graph to see the actual wave form and shape of the attack and release.
 
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