music theory/composition scale,keys,chords?

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Beatmaker
ill o.g.
I got a question for all my educated beatsmiths out there...ahem(wings)
well, latley I've been wanting to expand my musical knowlege dabbling in a lil musical theory and since I'm a senior in high school thats what imma study at CSUN allright to the point when I'm making a beat say I make my bassline wit a C-blues scale, do i gotta use the same scale for everything on that beat? can anyone explain some basic theories? I'm lost thats why I usually make all my beats in the c major scale If I learn to use other scales I could make way better grooves the first time I tried messin wit that blues c major my bassline sounded so funky D.R.E. style g-funk status that ishh is ill!
help me out bro,
PEACE

And oh yeah The WESTCOAST NEVER!!! FELL OFF!
RETROSPEC RECORDSZ
 

classic

I am proud to be southern
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 90
well every key has a realive minor, Like C majors realitive minor is A minor. since most bridges are usually minor progressions of the orignal beat u can go by that. But if u stick strickly to that rule it can be quite limiting......

What i do is i play the bridge or bassline in any key i want and if i want to tie it into a different sequnce i change the last note in the fist sequnce to the realitve minor of the (key signature) of the next sequnce.....it sounds alot more complicated then it is. Basically, thats why the called it a bridge becasue your "bridgeing" 2 key signatures toghter


BUT....
Ive said this many times to many memebers, all the theroy in the world dosent mean shit if you not a musical person. I can sit here an tell u all the circle of 5ths etc.. but if its not in your mind it wont matter. I wouldent worry about the theory part to much and focus and perfecting your style.

You have to experiment and when u find a groove u like run with it,

class....
 
ill o.g.
this is a very broad topic. You cant just come on here and say '
teach me music theory', because first of all, noone even has any idea what you already do know? There is waaaay more to music theory than just some scales, chords and keys.
And jazz/blues is like a sub-section of the theory, cause this has loads of theory in itself.
Do you have a keyboard or piano or even guitar at home? Cause this will make it hella easier to get started learning, piano/keyboard being the easier one to learn theory on of the two. Learn about intervals in a scale, that is one of the key things. learn some different scales and memorize the amount of steps between the intervals for each different scale. the more you practice around with standard stuff, the more natural it becomes embedded in you, and after a while you wont even have to think about how to play any scale starting on any key.

Once you know your scales you can learn how to harmonize the scales, basically this means for each note in the scale, play a chord with that note as root and with the third , fifth, seventh, 9th, etc. being a note which is in the original scale.

After this i suggest you learn basic standard chord progressions, these can be described in interval numbers, such as very standard and very common I-IV-V, (interval 1, 4, and 5, in c major this C-major, f-major, g-major). there are basically 3 types, which you can combine endlessly, second up/down, third up/down, and fifth up/downhow they sound in respect to eachother or in combo is yet another sub-subject of theory e.g 3rd progressions have smooth feel cause the chords share notes etc.).

this is what got me started on the right direction. This is only the tip of the iceberg like i said, music theory is like music itself, you are never 'done' with it , or at a point where you can learn no more, imo. (well, maybe less so than music of course lol, but like i said , blues has its own theory as well as jazz, it all depends on what you are doing or where you want to go)

Here some other basic little helpers for ya.

Like my man classic said, every major key has its relative minor key. The relative minor for a major scale is its 6th interval, so for c-major it is a. the reason for that is, the scale of the relative minor uses all the same keys as its relative major scale. Try it, c major is all the white keys starting on c going to the c on the next octave. c is interval 1, d interval 2, etc. now A minor (natural minor) is all white keys starting one going to a on the next octave. (interesting eh, btw, that even though you are using the exact same keys the scale has a different sound and feel to it simply cause you start on a different key. this is because even though the keys are the same, the amount of steps in between the intervals is different). These are also two modes, c is ionian mode and A natural minor is aeolian mode or something like that. There are also different modes, you can find them also by playing only white keys but starting on a differnt key each time, you now know c and a, the other are: in order starting on c with the last mode on b, ionian, dorian, phrygrian, lydian, mixolodian, aeolian, and locrian. A nice sentence to help you remember: I Dont Play Like Miles And Louis to start out with , i suggest just sticking to ionion and aeolian, that will get you by just fine, most music out there is in these modes .

A key is basically just a 13th chord, most scales contain 7 notes, and a 13th chord contains...you guessed it....seven notes . (this is just an example, shit gets mad complicated im just scratching the surface here remember )

There are so many more scales and modes out there, another one which can also be used while starting is the melodic minor. this is exactly the same as the natural minor, but it has a raised seventh.


It is called melodic because having the seventh raised seperates it from the I interval by just one halftone rather than two, so it makes you and your ears 'expect' the I interval more . See, this is where it all starts to get flexible, because of this expectency im talking about, you can play other chords in a key too that wont be diatonicaly in that key or as i mentioned earlier 'harmonized' to that scale. You can play any dominant chord a halftone above a following chord for example. A dominant chords is one one of those making you expect chords im talking about. V is a dominant chord in a major/minor scale, so in c major, G7 is the dominant chord. Its dominant because it is a major triad with a minor 7th, very different from all the other harmonized 7th chords in your scale because all the minor chords have a minor 7th and all the major chords have a major 7th. This makes you expect the c major chord very much, because the 3rd of the dominant is one half step below the root of the tonic, or I chord, and the 7th of the dominant is one half step above the 3rd of the tonic chord. (studying this paragraph and delving on it further with e.g. google will get you into a bit of jazz theory, the tritone, and tritone substitions). the tritone is three whole steps/notes above the I chord, so in our favorite C, it is F#. if you play a major scale starting on F#, the only notes it shares with the c major scale are: interesting interesting, F and B, the 7th and 3rd of our dominant chord, respectively.

because of this dominan/tonic relation ship, you can also change another chord in your major scale: the III chord, you can turn this into a dominant (III7) chord too. in C, the 3rd interval is e. when harmonizing this with the c scale you end up with E minor. However, you will notice that the III interval is the fifth of the natural minor, A in our case. Hence you can change E minor to E7. Try it and see, go from Em to Am, and E7 to Am, they both have a different feel.

Another thing that will really help you speed up your chord handling on piano/keyboard is learning chord inversions. Lets take our favorite C major triad as an example. Normally this is C, E, G. The first inversion is where you play the same notes but with the root last, so 1st inv. of C is E, G, C. its still a C major chord, but has a different sound/feel than the normal C major because the root of a chord gives it its definition. The 2nd inversion is where you play the 5th first, so G, C, E. also, same chord, different feel. This gives you some variation, but also lets you play many different chords while barely moving your hand or even lifting fingers of certain keys . For example, play Em 1st inversion (G, B, E) followed by Am (A, C, E). See, the last finger can stay on the E, and you only have two move the first two over a bit.

This is also just a little bit of things that ive learned and found useful which helped me start to learn, and barely the tip of the iceberg. I suggest you read a little and play/practice as much as you can :D (like, waaaay more than you read). Hope this wasn't all too vague and maybe helps anyone out a bit. Have phun!

Peace
 

bigdmakintrax

BeatKreatoR
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 123
man take it from someone that took formal music training all the way from about 5th grade thru High School and played in the concert band, played 1st and 2nd chair, Jazz band made 4's in the State festivals...etc...., marching band and about 4 or 5 gigging club bands......there is no replacement for the classroom theories and applying it and reading music.....but a lot of time to make some really good Hip hop it doesn't even really matter you need your ear and creativity......not unless you tryna be the hip Barry White....LOL just kidding but dys and Class are right....its gonna be hard for anyone on here to explain what literally takes you some years, usually to learn the foundation will take you a YEAR or so Conservatively speaking.....but if you have a good EAR...USE your ear and just go get one of those Beginning Keyboard Videos and start there......They work......I was formally trained on Sax and Drums....also the Xylophone but i taught myself Keys and learned from some Really good board players backing them up.........if you want to learn REAL music man.....4get about your fruityloops.......go enroll in an organized group or class with musicians and listen to a lot of music.......Nowadays with music people want to cut corners and skip the class thing becuz it takes too long......well thatz why there's a lot of really bad music coming out....its sort of the crutch of sampling though....I know that will piss some people off but I sample too though, if you have something already composed it makes you lazy, try making some songs and melodies on your own and listen to some music you think you would like to play.
 
ill o.g.
word thnx class ;) I play numerous instruments, my main instrument up until recently was guitar. I even played bass guitar in some lame ass grunge band for a while (did two live performances with that.) I can jam the drums too, and my current main favorite instrument as you can guess is keyboard. Even though ive been playing most of these instruments for years, i didnt start with theory until a few months ago, so i suppose im relatively n00bish in that area, I just thought id give some pointers which got me jumpstarted on this subject and kept me interested enough to learn more.
 

afriquedeluxe

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 221
the ear is the key. build you ear first before you even try to learn all the theory. i have a friend who knew how to play most of the scales of keys on guitar, but couldnt do a melody to a certain chord progression without knowing what key it was in. id have to tell him for example it was in e flat before he could write any melody lines or improvise, he wasnt sure whether what he played was soundin right to the ear but knew theoretically it was right.
 

classic

I am proud to be southern
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 90
afriquedeluxe said:
the ear is the key. build you ear first before you even try to learn all the theory. i have a friend who knew how to play most of the scales of keys on guitar, but couldnt do a melody to a certain chord progression without knowing what key it was in. id have to tell him for example it was in e flat before he could write any melody lines or improvise, he wasnt sure whether what he played was soundin right to the ear but knew theoretically it was right.

Exaclty!!! I said it once and ill say it again, u can have all the theory in the world but if u dont have musical talanet or an ear, it dosent mean ish. Some of the best musicans in the world dont know any theory at all!!!
All theory does if give you the abitltiy to discribe what most talent musicans already do naturally.

Even though i know theory out the ass i rarely use it when im makin music. Maybe to select a key signature but thats it. EVerything else goes off feeling alone

classs....
 

luxx

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Ive been going back and forth with taking some class's on music theory. So for the guys that learned it, do u think it has helped alot with beatmaking? cause i think like class if u got an ear for it and a passion for the music and natural talent u can make hot shit without the music theory part.
 

classic

I am proud to be southern
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 90
luxx said:
Ive been going back and forth with taking some class's on music theory. So for the guys that learned it, do u think it has helped alot with beatmaking? cause i think like class if u got an ear for it and a passion for the music and natural talent u can make hot shit without the music theory part.

A little thoery can always help but u dont need enthrawl yourself in it. A look at afrque that cat does things that people in my old theory classes would dream about. He just uses his ear. I say learn a couple of scales and chourd progessions and your good to go.

I look at it like this
Of your a world class sprinter. eating right and excrising will make a differnce between running a 10.00 and a 9.8

But if you and avrage joe u can train your ass of and u will never be that fast no matter what u do

Music theory is the same way, if u got the musical talent, it will help you take it to the next level , but if u dont, well u know the rest

To be honest alot of people are learning theory that dont need to be. I see them all the time. They can quote all the catatonic scales and even know schoinburges 12 tone scale system

But u ask the to come up with a orignal meldoy on there own and they are lost..

Leaning is always great but just realise that theory is not going to marclously make u a better producer. All it does is enhance your already exisiting talent

class....
 
ill o.g.
Yeah class is right man. I myself too was making and playing music for the longest time, with nothing but my ears and my feeling, I have that natural ability and a good ear too (this is not arrogance, its honesty, i aint sayin im beethoven either).

I started learning theory not very long ago, so it was more like an addition to ability that was already there (i discovered that for years i had 'known' scales and certain progressions subconsciously).

Its the combination that matters, although my opinion is, people can make beautiful music by ther ears alone, but people who know nothing but theory and have absolutely no feeling or ears for it all will not make music that you will 'feel', or give you a certain vibe, get what im sayin? like class said, theory is nice and useful, but if you dont have the feeling or ears already it will do you no good, other than that you will be able to very rigidly, tightly, and emotionlessly be able to play anything on sheet music or whatever.

Its like speaking your native language, you all know english, you have learned to speak it as a kid, when people talk to you in english you understand them, and when you speak to others they understand you too. But there is a difference between how say someone from the ghetto speaks to how say someone with a Harvard PhD speaks. You can understand both of them, but the harvard guy will have a larger vocublary, better understanding of grammar, and so on. Its kinda like that. ( No im not sayng that people from the ghetto cant speak, nor am i tryin to say that musicians who dont know theory are poor and low class and musicians who do know it are doctors, its just an analogy). Basically they both speak the same language but the harvard guy is more refined. And not everyone needs theory either, I personally didnt do it because i felt like i 'needed' it, i just have a knowledge hungry brain lol. Plus learning theory has enabled to me to learn keys (keyboard) very fast (and my natural ability helps with that too of course). Previoulsy, prior to knowing theory i would have a melody or chord progression in my head, and although i had the ears, i would sometimes have to sit there for 10 minutes to try and figure out which keys to press to make this one chord i was thinking about, which gets to be very frustrating, because you keep hearing out of tune chords or chords different from what you want. Now with theory knowledge i can just get on with my shit much faster, i can focus more on the structure of my song or my beat rather than sit there and mess around with some silly chords, know what im saying.

So all in all, my advice is , like my man afrique said, learn to use your ears first and like my man class said, combine when you want to take some shit to another level. Even the most die hard theorist will tell you, in the end, it all comes down to what YOU like and what YOU want to make and do with the sound. Theory is a description, not a rulebook or path to enlightenment. ;)

Peace

btw, im glad some peeps learned something from my post, and its very dope that 2 peeps said it should be an article. I will suppose ask fade (even though im a bit shy with my less than 30 posts and am not sure it was that good lol) if i can make it an article, it will have to be edited and rewritten a bit though ;)
 

Rhythmikal

Beat's Disciple
ill o.g.
all i know is that Kanye West knows absolutely nothing about musical theory (he said in an interview), and look where he is.

sAfE.
 

CampO

BEAT u DOWN
ill o.g.
Yea i remember reading about that producer megahurtz he said he just close his eyes and hits the keys till he finds something thats hottt
 
ill o.g.
Man , the first lame response i wasnt even gonna answer, but do yall last two dummys know how to read?!? What did both me and classic say, like numerous times and shit? Learn how to read, stop being so ignorant. No one here said that you need theory or that you will never get nowhere with out it.

And p.s You guys have horrible examples of not needing theory. Most hiphop beat makers dont know theory fools. Most mainstream musicians dont know it either. To that first guy, 'look at where kanye is at?', first of all, kanye makes some aight shit but he aint all that man, he aint no damn genius or something. Second of all, saying look where hes at, soo? Look where britney spears is at? look where christina at? look where the backstreet boys were? does this mean they are fucking awesome and i should worship them too?

I suggest next time you take some actual musicians which play instruments very well and shit who dont know theory as an example, like jimi hendrix, or tori amos, or stevie wonder, or prince. Not some hiphop beat maker that is hot at this moment in time. (no offense to kanye fans out here, hell i like him too, but you know what i mean) ;)

peace
 
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